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Gaining an Overlap with the kite pole
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gaining an Overlap with the kite pole
    Posted: 18 Jan 06 at 5:38pm

Originally posted by CurlyBen

The two boat length zone is clearly two hull lengths but does that have any bearing on the definition of an overlap? Certainly in a case of contact it's more than just the hull that's considered.

No.

2 length zone (note - it's not called 2 boat lengths, it's the 2 length zone) is defined as 2 hull lengths.

Overlap is defined as hull and equipment in normal position.

Makes sense with a bit of thought - if 2 length zone included hull and equipment, for bowsprit boats it would make it larger at the leeward mark than at the windward. People have enough trouble as it is agreeing on when they reach the zone. And for overlaps - well, generally it's to find out if they'll be someone in the way if you change course - so includes all the sticky-out bits at the front and back.

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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 06 at 5:43pm

Originally posted by CurlyBen

Actually, does the 2 boat length zone and rule 18 come into this at all? Surely it's Rule 11
ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall
keep clear of a leeward boat.

and the only relevant issue is whether they were overlapped, covered in the definition Knightmare quoted and so the question is whether the pole was in it's normal postion?

Pretty much what I think - I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer given a moment ago:

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=286 99&st=0&p=592609&#entry592609

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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 06 at 5:44pm

Originally posted by CurlyBen

Actually, does the 2 boat length zone and rule 18 come into this at all? Surely it's Rule 11

Rule 18 is a part C rule, rule 11 is a part B rule. Part C overrides part B. So if there is no overlap, the windward boat does not have to keep clear within the 2BL circle.



Edited by Stefan Lloyd
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CurlyBen View Drop Down
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Posts: 539 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 06 at 5:44pm
Yeah sure, I understand and agree with all of that, I was querying why the matter of the two boat length zone had been brought up in the first place.
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Posts: 539 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 06 at 5:53pm
Sorry Stefan, I didn't see your reply before I posted. I hadn't thought about the rule in that way, but having just looked at it I agree, so thanks for that. I did also notice this at the end of rule 18 though -
"OVERLAP RIGHTS
If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an
overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not."
Would the issue of the correct position of the pole constitute reasonable doubt?
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 06 at 6:13pm

Originally posted by CurlyBen

I did also notice this at the end of rule 18 though -
"OVERLAP RIGHTS
If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not."
Would the issue of the correct position of the pole constitute reasonable doubt?

From the OP

No argument that the pole was overlapped at 2BL, even though not yet fully out. In the end no protests and an amiable discussion in the bar...

So 18.2.e not too relevant - there was no doubt that the overlap was established in time. What is in doubt is whether it was or wasn't a legitimate overlap - which comes down to whether the pole is in its normal position if it's deployed before the 2 length zone.


 
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CurlyBen View Drop Down
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Posts: 539 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 06 at 6:17pm
Oops - easy to lose site of the original question. I missed the in time section as well to be honest!
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 06 at 6:50pm

Originally posted by CurlyBen

Would the issue of the correct position of the pole constitute reasonable doubt?

I don't think so. I believe "reasonable doubt" refers to the facts found, not to the way in which rules should be intepreted. In other words, if boat A said "no overlap" and boat B said "overlap" and there were no other witnesses, the committee might think "reasonable doubt" existed. That isn't the case here as both boats agree on what happened.
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 06 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by CurlyBen

Actually, does the 2 boat length zone and rule 18 come into this at all?

Absolutely, fundamentally and completely. You're forgetting 17.1. Otherwise a boat that establishes an overlap on the inside and leeward side could be "wiped off" at the mark by the windward boat refusing to sail above her/his proper course. When an inside overlap is established from behind rule 18 is what lets you get round the mark.
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Posts: 539 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 06 at 9:36pm
But the windward boat must keep clear of the leeward boat (due time and opportunity obviously). The restriction is placed on the leeward boat who may not sail above her proper course, which would be around the mark and therefore the windward boat must keep clear of her. The way I read 18 it prohibits a leeward boat gaining an overlap within two boat lengths and pushing the windward boat up - the opposite of what you're saying (unless I've misinterpreted you or the rules - very possible!). I'll stop replying to this now as I'm distracting things a bit!

Edited by CurlyBen
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