New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Definition of Planing
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Definition of Planing

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 456
Author
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Definition of Planing
    Posted: 27 Mar 19 at 4:13am
Originally posted by Peaky

   Why not just allow one pump per gust (ignoring that definition difficulty for now) .

Because given the gust definition difficulty it would basically be allowing continual kinetics. Just consider the average light airs run...
Back to Top
423zero View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 08 Jan 15
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3420
Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 19 at 12:59pm
Going back to the Enterprise, would it be better described as skimming?
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048
Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 19 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Going back to the Enterprise, would it be better described as skimming?

More likely pushing the level of the lake down.....
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 19 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by jeffers


Originally posted by 423zero

Going back to the Enterprise, would it be better described as skimming?

More likely pushing the level of the lake down.....


That's the Comet Trio, isn't it? You can plant spuds behind it in a blow. Feels fast, though!
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Peaky

I don’t know. I don’t think these 200s are, but others may disagree.

200s planing?
Looks like he's just about to get planing at 1:26, if the crew would just move out... but generally no, not planing 

I'd say the Ent was.  

Here at 0.33 you can see me not planing after a gybe, and then a big pump to initiate it... Plenty of 200 planing in that video (but it is 20 knots). 

Dan's calculation a few pages back is probably pretty accurate for the speeds required to achieve planing... but, my feeling is you drop off the plane at a speed below that which it takes to get over the bow wave (maybe Dan could comment if that is correct). And although 12 knots sounds a lot you can get instantaneous speeds easily over 12 knots in a 200 even in less than 15 knots of breeze, but lasting for less than a fraction of a second. 

When you shift your weight back violently and give the sail a pump it pushes the boat over it's bow wave. The boats average speed may be well less than 10 knots, but in that moment it's quite easy to get well above. Once out you can keep moving back and the boat will support itself planning on the wider flatter aft section at speed below hull speed. 

For example, assuming you get up on to the plane at 12 knots, but drop off it at 9. If you can ooch or pump to get over the bow wave by achieving 12 knots for a instant when otherwise you were doing 8 knots, you can then, with the same energy sustain steady planning at 10 knots due to less hull drag.

Generally I find a pump when you get hooked up on the back of wave really does help, but timing is crucial. It gives you an instantaneous boost which gets you over the lip. But, every action has an opposite reaction. Pumping is very energy inefficient, you might push the boat forward 2 foot in a pump, but then it slips back 20 inches when you ease the sail and restore your body wait to original trim. Slipping back 20 inches isn't an issue when the pump got you on to the plane at sustained 2 knots faster speed, or gets you on to wave which carries you 50 meters... but if you're not timing these pumps to take advantage of additional gains, then not having your sails or weight correctly trimmed during the pump can be more disruptive lose you those 4 inches which you invested a heap of energy in by pumping. 

In the very light winds, when you're hardly moving, then pumping, even if you're only clawing yourself forward a few inches at a time is a lot faster than sitting stationary, and you have very little true wind to worry about neglecting anyway... but few regatta's are raced in this, although I accept it makes up a lot of peoples club racing and is where, I think most of the concern with allowing free pumping is.

Above is really discussing 'macro' level pumping. With a large body movement and full arm length of sheet. It takes about 1- second for the pump and 5 seconds to slowly move back to the pre-pump position. You then get the fanning style of pumping you see on the 470s and windsurfs upwind which don't give a large instantaneous jump in speed, but input an extra boost of energy continually in to the sails. I think this is very hard to achieve in a dinghy though as you need a full persons body-weight in direct link to the rig... you don't see the finns doing it as most their body-weight is supported by a heavy hull. 






Edited by mozzy - 30 Apr 19 at 11:28am
Back to Top
Fatboi View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 09 Aug 16
Location: Hampshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 189
Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by mozzy

  you don't see the finns doing it as most their body-weight is supported by a heavy hull. 





The Finns are not allowed to pump upwind - written into class rules. 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 19 at 1:22pm
Fair enough, bad example then! 

But still, i recon it would be hard to achieve what the 470s do in most hiking classes. And it's fairly obvious if someone does it at club level.... so much so I don't think it's much of a worry for club racing. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 456

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy