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Downwind By the Lee & an Unstayed Rig
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MattHarris View Drop Down
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Posts: 94 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MattHarris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Downwind By the Lee & an Unstayed Rig
    Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 2:23pm
I'm happy to be wrong, makes life easier using the boom as a guide.  Scary thing was this was at an RYA rules night in March 2011, whilst i know that the rules have changed since then to RRS2012-16 i don't think this section has altered considerably.  Makes you wonder on how up to date some of the rules bods are.
 
I know the thing with rugby, i took 2 years out recovering from a shoulder injury and suddenly there were lots of quite big of changes.  Took me a month or two to get used to it again and by then i'd trashed my knee ligaments and was sidelined anyway...
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by MattHarris

We queried this with an RYA judge who did a talk at the club a few years back...  Apparently port/starboard is based on the direction the wind travels across the deck 

Not any longer, as per the current definition posted subsequent to your post.
This sort of thing comes up from time to time: folk regard what a judge or lecture or book told them many years ago as being definitively correct. No doubt it was correct *then* (assuming its being remembered correctly) but that doesn't mean its correct now.

Unfortunately you do need to keep up with the rules. Still, at least its not as bad as Rugby where large aspects of the game have utterly changed from the days when I played...

This sort of thing comes up from time to time: folk regard what a judge or lecture or book told them many years ago as being definitively correct.......No doubt the judge, RYA Rules advisor (hmmmm), or local hot shot thought he was correct but actually he was talking out of his bottom.  Sadly it happens....
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rodney View Drop Down
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Posts: 915 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rodney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 13 at 10:41am
Originally posted by boatshed


I post this picture below of a Finn stolen from the Worlds Flickr site which shows the boom out far more than 90 deg !   I know the Finns can pump freely above 10 knots and maybe this is what is going on ;  the helm has eased off a big armful of main and is just about to aggressively haul it in again.But my first question for 'non pumping classes' with similar rigs, is this :  Is the quickest way down wind, in a medium breeze, to free off the main well beyond 90 deg and then keep bearing off  ?  If so, I can't help thinking this will utterly destabilise the boat with massive lurches to windward which will then require the helm to make  correspondingly aggressive boom adjustments just to stay upright.  My second question is:  In non-pumping classes, at what point does trying to stay upright,  by constant boom adjustment,  start to become pumping  ?  

Looking at the picture I would say that he is not sailing by the lee. Just look at the angle of the beating boats and draw your own conclusions. He is clearly just about to do a huge, single parting, pump which is allowed within the free pumping rules in the Finn class which starts at 10 knots (only permitted when flag Oscar is raised).

Generally, in my experience, it is best to sail conventionally (i.e. not by the lee)in most conditions with the exception that it sometimes pays to sail by the lee when surfing on waves. A bit hairy but can pay big dividends in the right conditions.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 13 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by rodney

it sometimes pays to sail by the lee when surfing on waves. A bit hairy but can pay big dividends in the right conditions.


I can concur with that, I kind of discovered it by accident in the EPS, you kind of get two 'bottom turns' as we'd say in windsurf parlance, but, only when the wave speed is sufficient of course.

I've been playing with it on the lake, trying to work out why it is faster (often with disasterous consequence) it seems with the windflow reversed, the mast acts like an incredible efficient kicker so you have a very tight leech and of course a very unstable leading edge, which, wrong shifted will have you over as soon as... I'm still not sure wether actual kicker on or off is better, with it on it does tighten up the entry, but off it depowers and widens the scope for error correction, someone must know what's best I'm sure the lasers must have it dialled by now, but it is definitely faster down wind and more difficult with a soft sail than a fully battened rig to control afaics.
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 13 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by rodney

Originally posted by boatshed


I post this picture below of a Finn stolen from the Worlds Flickr site which shows the boom out far more than 90 deg !   I know the Finns can pump freely above 10 knots and maybe this is what is going on ;  the helm has eased off a big armful of main and is just about to aggressively haul it in again.But my first question for 'non pumping classes' with similar rigs, is this :  Is the quickest way down wind, in a medium breeze, to free off the main well beyond 90 deg and then keep bearing off  ?  If so, I can't help thinking this will utterly destabilise the boat with massive lurches to windward which will then require the helm to make  correspondingly aggressive boom adjustments just to stay upright.  My second question is:  In non-pumping classes, at what point does trying to stay upright,  by constant boom adjustment,  start to become pumping  ?  

Looking at the picture I would say that he is not sailing by the lee. Just look at the angle of the beating boats and draw your own conclusions. He is clearly just about to do a huge, single parting, pump which is allowed within the free pumping rules in the Finn class which starts at 10 knots (only permitted when flag Oscar is raised).

Generally, in my experience, it is best to sail conventionally (i.e. not by the lee)in most conditions with the exception that it sometimes pays to sail by the lee when surfing on waves. A bit hairy but can pay big dividends in the right conditions.

Quite right, he isn't. What he is actually doing is letting the main out, heeling to windward and bearing away.  When he completes the bear away he'll push down on the leeward deck let the tiller cross and point up again.  All of which will result in great speed.
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rodney View Drop Down
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Posts: 915 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rodney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 13 at 3:31pm
Er

this might help

Finns pumping
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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1341 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 13 at 9:31pm
Unless there has been a change in doctrine, last I checked more kicker is safer but slower, less kicker faster but hairier. We do have to acknowledge there is a difference between sailing on the sea in waves, and sailing in flat waters. And whether the 'can't be bothered gybing' approach also comes into play... not that I have ever sailed by the lee purely because I didn't want to gybe...
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