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Pre-big kite 505 PY
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rogerd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1076 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pre-big kite 505 PY
    Posted: 02 Apr 13 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Originally posted by Dougaldog

From the detailed work that I've done Craiggo, I'd say that the example set by the Merlins, who happily give a PY advantage to users of the 'old' kite...

The MROA don't have the authority to do this. Sure they can give a time allowance to older boats in MROA organised racing, but they can't declare a new PY to be used in club organised handicap racing.
 
I could be wrong( I frequently am) but I was under the impression that the RYA had recognised to older boat handicaps in the Merlin fleet. My boat is 50 years old and it gets faster every year according to the PY.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 13 at 12:27pm
Clubs are perfectly entitled to give a different handicap to a boat that is clearly not what the published PY is looking at - the aim is fair racing, not a jobsworth "that is the number". I owned a 1970's Moth for a while. Should I have sailed it off 600?

The problem comes when one is not looking at a different design within a class, but at a one design that has subtly changed. How much is the change, and how much simply old boat? Which, in my view, shouldn't be allowed for in non Classics racing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 13 at 12:55pm
I agree, clubs should adjust a PY if a, for example, classic version is being sailed. The Class Association is well placed to suggest what those altered numbers may be, but they have no authority to say 'thou shalt use this number for these boats' - it can only be a suggestion. Do the MROA have a suggestion for the latest 2013 boats? After all, if the PY is an average and old boats get a boost up, the new ones should get a penalty down from the RYA number.

The slippery slope comes when a Laser with an alloy tiller is given a few PY points to compensate for not having a low profile carbon one.
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 13 at 1:51pm
Another problem arises when the RYA number goes down next year. Do you lower the old-boat PY by the same amount, on the basis that they could adopt the improved sails etc., or leave it as is?

We asked the Merlin Rocket Assn and got the answer 'don't know'.

And if you start looking at what individual boats are doing you are into the realms of personal handicapping, with possibilities of sandbagging etc.
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 13 at 6:37pm
Thanks for the input chaps. It's good to actually discuss real club issues on here for a change
I'm not a fan of personal handicapping so don't want to go down that route, but I recognize that a late 70s early 80s 5'o' is not going to sail to the current PY. The developments in the class are just too large. It's not the age that's a problem, as there are many classes where a 30yr old boat would still be competitive but I suspect the mighty 5 'o' is not one of them.
The UK forum suggestion of 932 looks about right to me, in that if they are hanging on to the back of an RS600 then they are doing well.

Paul
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 13 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by Peaky

I agree, clubs should adjust a PY if a, for example, classic version is being sailed. The Class Association is well placed to suggest what those altered numbers may be, but they have no authority to say 'thou shalt use this number for these boats' - it can only be a suggestion. Do the MROA have a suggestion for the latest 2013 boats? After all, if the PY is an average and old boats get a boost up, the new ones should get a penalty down from the RYA number.
......

I think the majority of the MR's being raced on the standard number under PY are probably no more out of step with the latest boat than most other classes.
The 'standard' number covers boats from 1999, then they suggest a change of +10 for boats back to 1988. Most of the boats getting +10 will not have raking rigs or the best hull shape, and will probably be either wooden or heavy or both.
+10 is not a big change, we've had 5 taken off the 400 over the last few years, and I think the MR has lost more from its base number?
Maybe more CA's should collect some age related data.
Things like the 505, contender and Furball may not have changed shape quite as obviously, but they have evolved.
In some circumstances, low tech GRP Ents etc probably deserve a PY boost, compared to a really good wooden one of the same age.
The trouble is, the more you slice and dice the numbers the smaller the samples get.
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 13 at 11:07pm
Paul,
The uk class has a formula for working out older 5oh py. Its pretty accurate although not an exacr science. If you go onto their foum and try and track down pete mallaband he will explain it to you.

Russ

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