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Port & Starboard at Leeward Mark
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Port & Starboard at Leeward Mark
    Posted: 29 May 12 at 12:53pm
I thought this question naive, but I'm not sure.

Port and starboard gybe boats, both asymmetric, are approaching the leeward mark to round it to starboard. Port thus indisputably has inside overlap.

If both were in the same race, port is clearly entitled to mark room, but suppose they are in different races?  Do the racing rules apply, or do things revert to 'Collisions at Sea' regs so that port has to give way to starboard? (surely not?!!)
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 1:22pm
If they are approaching the same mark then yes port (if inside and overlapped) is entitled to Mark room.  

If this mark is being used on 2 different courses then things may get a little grey but the rules apply between boats of different starts but on the same course otherwise there would massive issues.
Paul
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 1:41pm
Preamble to PART 2
WHEN BOATS MEET
The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to  race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 23.1.

When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way  rules. If the sailing instructions so state, the rules of Part 2 are replaced by the right-of-way rules of the IRPCAS or by government right-of-way rules.
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18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However,it does not apply....

So if both boats are racing, the RRS apply between them (preamble). 
If both boats are required to leave the mark on the same side - i.e., they're both rounding it the same way, then 18 applies, and the outside boat has to give an overlapped inside boat mark room. 

If the're not leaving it on the same side, then 18 doesn't apply. So if they're rounding it in opposite directions (Cowes weeks passim....), it's straight port/starboard and 16.1. Or if one is rounding and one isn't then again, port starboard & 16.1. 

If you want to get into the obscure depths, you can think about a boat racing, but under IRPCAS (common at night in offshore racing), meeting a boat racing under RRS, with the difficulty of informing the boat racing under the RRS that you aren't. But I can't imagine it's an exactly common situation. 


Edited by Presuming Ed - 29 May 12 at 1:46pm
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 4:41pm
If both boats are racing, even in different races AND both boats are required to leave mark on same side then rule 18 applies.

If both boats are racing BUT are not required to leave mark on same side rule 18 does not apply.

If one boat is not racing, not intending to race or has not been racing (they are in the race area) then Col Regs apply
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 5:01pm
That's what I was hoping to hear!  Thanks all.
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Posts: 350 		Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 5:08pm
OK, but you probably wouldn't know what the boat in another race was required to do. so it might be hard to call confidently for mark room?
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 5:14pm
I haven't looked at a rule book in years... but doesn't the same still apply that if you hail for water then the other boat is obliged to give it you if you are both racing?  They can then protest / seek redress afterwards if they believe this impeded them in anyway?

Edited by pondmonkey - 29 May 12 at 5:15pm
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r2d2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 350 		Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 5:26pm
you're having a laugh arn't you?

I don't think hailing gives you any rights whatsoever


Edited by r2d2 - 29 May 12 at 5:57pm
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

I haven't looked at a rule book in years... but doesn't the same still apply that if you hail for water then the other boat is obliged to give it you if you are both racing?  They can then protest / seek redress afterwards if they believe this impeded them in anyway?

The only rule which requires a hail is 20 (tacking at an obstruction). Once a boat has hailed for room, the only 2 possible responses available to the hailed boat are either to reply "You tack" and give the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her, or to tack herself. 

From next year, IIRC we're going to have to use match racing hand signals as well as hails. 

The is no requirement to hail for room at a mark. 
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 12 at 6:40pm
Don't forget you are required to hail for protest and fly a flag if your vessel is longer than 18(?) feet?

I always request room as that leaves the other boat in no doubt that I think I have the required overlap (there are people around who are on the school of thought that if you don't ask for it they wont give it - wrong I know but there you go).
Paul
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