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Protests by jury on the water

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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Protests by jury on the water
    Posted: 16 Dec 11 at 9:23am

I have often been asked whether the judges out on the water, charged with policing rule 42, will protest other infringements. The following is a quote froma policy document posted at several international regattas this year:

"Sailing is essentially a self-policing sport. The Jury expect that boats will take a penalty promptly when appropriate. The primary responsibility for protesting breaches of the rules is with the competitors, not the jury. However, in addition to taking action in accordance with Appendix P, the jury may lodge protests in accordance with RRS 60.3.


The jury will not usually protest for a breach of a rule of Part 2 or rule 31 unless they observe an apparent breach of good sportsmanship (RRS 2). Examples of such breaches are:

- deliberate breach of the rules without taking a penalty and gaining an advantage.

- failing to take a penalty after knowingly touching a mark with no justification for exoneration.

- intimidating other boats – often evidenced by unnecessary shouting or foul language.

- team tactics – sailing to benefit another boat to the detriment of your own position.

- reckless sailing – sailing that results in or is likely to result in damage or injury."

In a gap in racing, a raft of Judges discussed whether this list needed modifying. One suggestion was made:


When a Jury clearly observes contact between two boats and neither a protest is lodged or a penalty taken the the Jury may protest both boats. During the hearing it can then be decided which boat broke a rule.

The logic behind this suggestion is that if there is contact between boats a rule has been broken (rule 14 and probably another rule). The Basic Principle that governs our sport states "A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire."

If, after contact, no action (protest or penalty) then this fundamental principle of sportsmanship has been broken.

I would be interested to read your thoughts on this suggestion.


Gordon

 

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Neptune View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 11 at 9:31am
They are going to have a busy time observing that on a laser fleet start line!
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 11 at 9:45am
Part of the game though is the Risk Vs Reward decisions you make when you decide to protest someone, you know there is a chance it will go against you and you choose to protest or not based on how big that chance is. The other boat does the same, if neither of you are confident of who is in the right it should be your choice if you want to pursue it or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 11 at 10:06am
Originally posted by Quagers

Part of the game though is the Risk Vs Reward decisions you make when you decide to protest someone,

Well, no, that's not part of the game at all. I can find nothing about that in the rules. If you are uncertain whether you will win a protest you can take a 720, then you're in a no lose situation. If you win the other boat is DSQ, if you lose you've already taken the penalty.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 11 at 10:20am
I should perhaps have quoted th first sentence of the Basic Principle:
Competitors in the sport ofsailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce.

The "and enforce" is interesting - sailors are also referees! The first person on who they should enforce the rules is on themselves.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 11 at 1:07pm
So If 'm drifting around in almost no wind, and there is accidental contact, say between a boom end and a shroud, maybe because a safety boat wash from 100yards away just made a boat wobble a bit, someone is at fault and a penalty must be taken or a protest heard, rather than both sailors shrugging and one pulling in the main a bit? And if they don't, a jury member could protest?
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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 11 at 1:15pm
Theoretically - I would expect judges to exercise some discretion. However, I have been at events where boats got broken and neither penalty was taken nor protest lodged.

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 11 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by Rupert

maybe because a safety boat wash from 100yards away just made a boat wobble a bit, someone is at fault and a penalty must be taken or a protest heard,

Well that's what the rules say, and if there's contact because of a bit of a wobble then it seems highly likely someone wasn't keeping clear...
I think that would be preferable to the current situation where all too often there is insufficient rule observation.

Edited by JimC - 16 Dec 11 at 1:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 11 at 10:31pm
Yes but we've been round and round on this one.  And the rule observance issue is about self-policing not the effect of Juries!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 11 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by gordon

I would expect judges to exercise some discretion.

Gordon
 
I think you've hit the nail on the head Gordon.
I believe that sailors themselves do in the main exercise some discretion themselves, and ultimatelely it should be the [perceived] transgressed boats perogative to lodge the protest.
 
Your expectation that judges could exercise some discretion could only lead to more inconsistency with a far greater onus on the judges, along with their obligation to attend the protests as witnesses.
 
If you accept that the odd gunwhale scuff dismissed by the ROW boat as irrelevant (just as if the keep clear boat had caused the ROW to avoid, without making contact) that is the way to leave it. Why try and fix something that is not broken?
 
 
 
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