New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Correct course to sail?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Correct course to sail?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
ohFFsake View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 04 Sep 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 219
Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Correct course to sail?
    Posted: 07 Aug 10 at 11:25pm
A strange situation cropped up in a recent race at our local club, regarding the interpretation of rounding a mark.

Here's a variation of the course which illustrates the point of contention.

The OD sets the following course (see diagram)

(START)
1-S
2-S
3-S
4-S
5-P
(FINISH)



What does a boat need to do at marks 2 and 4 in order to correctly comply with the stated course?
Back to Top
Sailing4Life View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 26 Jun 10
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 38
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sailing4Life Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 10 at 11:46pm
To me with the diagram you have drawn and the instructions
you have given I would leave mark 5 to port and that would
be it. You leave mark 1,2,3,4 to starboard which means as
long as they are on your right your good.
Rs600 + many others
Back to Top
ohFFsake View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 04 Sep 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 219
Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 12:13am
That's what I thought.

However to satisfy rule 28.1(b) it would appear that the only correct interpretation would be to do a 360 degree clockwise turn around marks 2 and 4.

Otherwise the notional piece of string fails to touch the mark
Back to Top
Scooby_simon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 02 Apr 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2415
Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 1:31am

Originally posted by ohFFsake

That's what I thought.

However to satisfy rule 28.1(b) it would appear that the only correct interpretation would be to do a 360 degree clockwise turn around marks 2 and 4.

Otherwise the notional piece of string fails to touch the mark

Depends if the course STATES round the mark to S; or MARK to S;

If rounding; you might have a point as because of the shape of the course and the fact you are expected to ROUND the mark; then string must pull taught and TOUCH.  If the course states pass the mark to stbd then the string does not need to TOUCH.

From: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20092012with2010ch anges-[8222].pdf

 

28 SAILING THE COURSE

28.1 A boat shall start, leave each mark on the required side in the correct

order, and finish, so that a string representing her track after starting

and until finishing would when drawn taut

(a) pass each mark on the required side,

(b) touch each rounding mark, and

(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the previous

mark.

She may correct any errors to comply with this rule. After finishing

she need not cross the finishing line completely.

Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6662
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 5:51am
Appendix L of the rules*, the guide to SIs is the place that talks about differentiating rounding marks from others. Basically the SIs should distinguish between rounding marks and non-rounding marks unless its obvious. To my mind though this course is unnecessary complication. Bearing in mind the area you've drawn then none of the marks except maybe 5 add anything much to the game at all unless there's strong current...

*not a place you'd ordinarily spend much time looking at!

Edited by JimC
Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 9:27am
AFAIK all marks are for rounding unless stated otherwise. Unless there is either a course diagram showing that the intermediate marks are passing marks or a statement in the SIs to that effect, the marks need to be looped, which presumably wasn't the ROs intention. We commonly set passing marks at my club and the course list states any marks which are passing. 
Back to Top
gordon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1037
Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 10:51pm
Stefan, It is the other way round; All marks are passing marks unless it is specified that they are rounding marks. Boats are required to pass all marks on the required side, the "string" is only required to touch marks specified as rounding marks (see RYA1985/4). The SIs must clearly identify rounding marks.

It is possible that you have local SIs that specify that all marks are rounding marks but the RRS certainly do not.

Gordon
Gordon
Back to Top
ohFFsake View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 04 Sep 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 219
Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 11:23pm
Thanks for everyone's comments and thoughts about this.

Gordon, your definition actually seems to follow the logic I'd have expected in the first place, but can you give me a reference to where in the RRS it corroborates your statement that all marks are assumed to be passing marks unless defined as rounding marks?

The exact situation in our case is that 3 marks were defined as in 3,4,5 above. I chose to go straight from 3 to 5, on the basis that I thus passed the correct side of 4. I won the race but a week later our sailing secretary came across rule 28.1b and retrospectively DSQ'd us! Thus it would please me greatly to find we were in the right all along!
Back to Top
ohFFsake View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 04 Sep 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 219
Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 11:58pm
Ah, just found the case you quoted:

RYA 1985/4
When a race committee intends a mark to be looped, the
mark must be identified as a rounding mark. When the
sailing instructions do not do so, or when they are
ambiguous, a boat may elect not to round a mark when
she can still leave it on the required side and in the
correct order.


Seems pretty definitive...
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 10 at 2:18am

Originally posted by gordon

Stefan, It is the other way round; All marks are passing marks unless it is specified that they are rounding marks. Boats are required to pass all marks on the required side, the "string" is only required to touch marks specified as rounding marks (see RYA1985/4). The SIs must clearly identify rounding marks.

It is possible that you have local SIs that specify that all marks are rounding marks but the RRS certainly do not

Just a quibble, there is a difference between 'specified' and 'identified'.  Marks in a conventional triangle or WL sausage course will be sufficiently identified as rounding marks without spelling it out in words.

The most usual way SI inadvertently make marks into rounding marks is with a statement like 'All marks shall be rounded on the side shown ...', or 'boats must round each mark ...'.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy