New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Windward mark: Both must tack
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Windward mark: Both must tack

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
damp_freddie View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 20 Oct 05
Location: Aruba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 339
Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Windward mark: Both must tack
    Posted: 12 May 10 at 11:58am
Hi

I have still this bugging little rules question if someone could answer:

port rounding, windward mark

Port Boat enters the three boat zone before Stb, but on a collision course: both must tack to get around- how does 18 apply?

Is Port actually overlapped from outside the zone ?


Edited by damp_freddie
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 10 at 12:12pm
Surely Rule 18 doesn't apply if boats are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward.
Back to Top
damp_freddie View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 20 Oct 05
Location: Aruba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 339
Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 10 at 12:14pm
Yeah, So if Port tacks without causing Stb to alter course and then both must tack twice again?

Port was within the 3 zone and not overlapped? Or does the different tack automatically overlap transom to bow?


Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6661
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 10 at 12:25pm
I can't figure out the situation you are puzzled about.

Rule 18 doesn't apply while boats are on opposite tacks so Port must keep clear and must either duck S or tack before they reach S. If P ducks S tacks and has mark room, if P tacks S has mark room.
Back to Top
gordon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1037
Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 10 at 7:58pm
  1. From what you are saying Starboard (S) is below lay line, therefore must tack twice.
If Port(P) ducks and S then tacks (keeping clear as she passes from head to wind to closehauled - rule 13) so that she is overlapped on the inside as she  reaches a closehauled course, S is keep clear boat (rule 11) but is entitled to mark room (18.2a). As S is overlapped to windward, P must give S room to tack. If S tacks at the mark, is not required to give P room as she changes course to windward, or as she passes head to wind until she is on a close-hauled course.

Gordon
Gordon
Back to Top
damp_freddie View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 20 Oct 05
Location: Aruba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 339
Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 10 at 11:59am
Thanks Gordon

The new clarification to 18 in 2010 helps with this because P now passes head to wind and loses her rights to water. 10-17 govern.

I may go and do a diagram.

This happens all the time where I sail at the moment due to some fairly narrow channels restricting the fleet and forcing people into the "death slot"
Back to Top
gordon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1037
Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 10 at 12:43pm
A diagram would help, because as I read your initial post P never had any right to mark room.

Unless of course S tacks below P and ends up on port overlapped outside P.

Gordon
Gordon
Back to Top
damp_freddie View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 20 Oct 05
Location: Aruba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 339
Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 10 at 3:25pm
the complication is 18.1.b one of the exemptions to the rule:

"on opposite tacks....proper course for one but not both of them is to tack"

This has always seemed strange to me: it should be overiden by 18.1.a, so why is it still there?

As Elvstrøms' states: on opposite tacks it is as if the mark is not there: 10-15 apply most.

Also I think it is superflouos with 18.2.b : the reference from a. is useless now: "a" and "b" should either just be merged or b should state the obvious, when the overlap is NOT before the (3 boat) zone. These all seem to be hangovers from earlier versions which could be further simplified.



Back to Top
gordon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Sep 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1037
Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 10 at 5:09pm
1; Boats may be on opposite tacks but not on a beat to windward - take the case of a reaching leg where one boat has gone too deep and has to tack back up to round mark.

2. 18.2b applies when there is an over lap, or one boat is clear ahead when the first boat reaches the zone. When boats are on opposite tacks on an upwind leg (which might not be a beat) then, by definition they are neither overlapped nor clear ahead/astern. When one boat enters the zone 18.2b does not apply, indeed none of rule 18 applies. If later, boats become overlapped on the same tack, rule 18.2a will apply. Remember, 18.3 only applies if one boat is fetching the mark. So, at a port hand windward mark, if starboard tack boat is below the lay line, crosses the port tack boat and tacks in to an overlap to windward 18.3 does not apply as neither boat is fetching the mark, 18.2b does not apply, so 18.2a applies and windward inside boat is entitled to mark room (including room to tack).

Gordon

18.2a is a default rule that applies when one of the other parts of the rule do not apply.
Gordon
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 10 at 1:39am

Originally posted by damp_freddie

Yeah, So if Port tacks without causing Stb to alter course and then both must tack twice again?

Port was within the 3 zone and not overlapped? Or does the different tack automatically overlap transom to bow?

Is the diagram at the foot right?

Starting point P on Port, S on Stbd, boats on opposite tacks with courses intersecting between one and two boatlengths downwind of the mark.  P reaches the zone first.

@1 when P reaches the zone, rule 18 does not apply (rule 18.1(a)).  Both needing to tack is irrelevant.  Boats are NOT overlapped because boats are on opposite tacks and rule 18 does not apply (Definition:  Overlap).

@2 minus Delta, when P, tacking, passes head to wind, Boats are now on the same tack.  Rule 18 applies.  NOT rule 18.2(b) because boats were neither clear ahead nor clear astern, nor overlapped when P reached the zone.  NOT rule 18.3 because S was not fetching, so only rule 18.2(a):  while they are overlapped, whichever boat is outside boat, at any future instant shall give the inside boat mark-room.  BUT it may be that, initially S is not 'inside' between P and the mark, so rule 18 is turned on, but it has no 'content':  neither boat gets a right to mark-room.

@2+Delta, both boats on Stbd, and S, to windward of P, gets between P and the mark, S is now 'inside' P and P must give S mark-room.  With P starting at the edge of the zone @1, by now S is well inside the zone, and is in all likelihood 'at' the mark, so P must give S room to sail her proper course to round the mark.  S is overlapped to windward and on the inside of P so the mark-room P is required to give includes room for S to tack.

@3 minus Delta, S tacking from Stbd onto Port, passes head to wind, boats are now on opposite tacks, still on a beat to windward, so rule 18 goes OFF, P, now on Stbd tack is RoW boat, but, boats are on diverging courses, so this is immaterial.

@3+Delta, P tacking onto Port, passes head to wind, boats now on same tack, rule 18 comes ON, specifically rule 18.2(a), and if P becomes overlapped inside S, then S must give P mark-room, by now, certainly being room to sail her proper course at the mark.



Edited by Brass
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy