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redders View Drop Down
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote redders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Proper Course
    Posted: 15 Apr 10 at 1:19pm

At a wing mark 2 boats arrive one behind the other, both on starboard, both 2 sail reaching, for a port rounding.The slower lead boat is clear ahead. The next leg is a dead run to a leeward mark.The boat in front is a conventional spinaker boat and the boat behind is an assymetric spinnaker boat.

As the first boat rounds her rounding is not good and she ends up boat length to windward of the rhumb line and begins hoist her spinnaker up, whilst the boat that was clear astern then gets an overlap within a boat length to leeward,and also hoists her spinnaker.

Once kites are set the leeward boat then demands that she wants to sail her proper course and asks the windward boat to head up. At the same time the windward boat demands that she wants to sail her proper course and bears away. There is no contact (lots of noise) and the conventional spinnaker boat clears ahead and sails off down the rhumb line whilst the assym boats after wallowing around heads up and sails away on a reach

There was not only the dissagreement on the water but also amongst the sailors at the club about what rules applied. I know what I think what does everyone else think?

Would it have made any difference if they were overlapped as they rounded.?
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MattK View Drop Down
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Posts: 221 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MattK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 10 at 1:45pm
Surely, as they were both sailing their proper course its a simple windward
boat must keep clear incident, with the leeward boat luffing, but not above
its proper course, so it had right of way, water and overlap shouldn't come
into it if they have both rounded the mark at this point
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Posts: 809 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Moo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 10 at 1:47pm
I haven't got RRS in front of me and I'm sure Gordon will be along shortly to give the definitive answer, but surely in this situation there is no requirement to sail a "proper course" and that it is normal windward boat leeward boat situation subject to the proviso of the leeward boat's responsibilities on initially acquiring right of way?

I would have thought an overlap rounding the mark would change nothing once they left it astern?
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 10 at 3:40pm

That relevant text in full:

17  THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE

If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

From this (my bold) we can see that the Proper Course of the boat to Windward is irrelevant. The proper course for the assymetric downwind will be to zigzag for VMG. The conventional spinnaker boat must find some way round this- they cannot force the assymetric low.

 

the Moo- the RRS are available free in pdf form at sailing.org, the official site of the ISAF



Edited by alstorer
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 10 at 3:56pm
Agree with above posters: Windward has to keep clear, but leeward may not sail above her proper course.

Assuming all agree on the facts above if there was no protest hearing windward should retire.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 10 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by alstorer

That relevant text in full:

17  THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE

If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

From this (my bold) we can see that the Proper Course of the boat to Windward is irrelevant. The proper course for the assymetric downwind will be to zigzag for VMG. The conventional spinnaker boat must find some way round this- they cannot force the assymetric low.

 

the Moo- the RRS are available free in pdf form at sailing.org, the official site of the ISAF

 

Where do the rules clarify what a proper course is? 

As far as I'm concerned, a proper course would be to aim at the mark, why should VMG come into it? 
My reasoning being that in several assymetric classes you'll find some people soaking, and some pushing for speed..... so if vmg came into it, an assymetric boat can basically luff as much or as little as he "feels" is quick.  With that in mind he could luff someone to high heaven intentionally and simply claim that he believes that was the best heading for his vmg.  That hardly seems right at all!!
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Posts: 452 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ham4sand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 10 at 4:08pm
Isnt "proper course" the course a boat would sail if the other boat was
not there to influence them - thats what it says in the sailing rules in
practice book. So the assy should have headed up to their normal
(max VMG) course
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Posts: 1341 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 10 at 4:16pm
Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 10 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by Doug.H

Where do the rules clarify what a proper course is?

In the definitions:
Proper Course - A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat
has no proper course before her starting signal.


So yes, its any course that you can convince the PC could be reasonable. Case 14 in the case book illustrates this - it appears to be about two boats in the same class:-


CASE 14
Rule 11, On the Same Tack, Overlapped
Rule 14, Avoiding Contact
Rule 16.1, Changing Course
Rule 17, On the Same Tack; Proper Course
Definitions, Proper Course

When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper course, two boats on the same tack converge, the windward boat must keep clear. Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper courses.

Summary of the Facts

After rounding the windward mark in light wind the fleet divided, some boats sailing towards shore to get out of the tide and others remaining offshore in hopes of a better wind. L had established an overlap to leeward of W from clear astern and they rounded the mark overlapped. W chose to remain offshore, while L began to luff slowly and informed W of her intention to go inshore. W replied ‘You have no right to luff.’ L replied that she was sailing her proper course and W was required to keep clear.

The discussion took some time. L continued to gradually change course, and at no time did W state that she was unable to keep clear. The boats touched and both protested. The protest committee disqualified L under rule 17 for sailing above her proper course, and she appealed.

Decision

When, owing to a difference of opinion on the proper course to be sailed, two boats on the same tack converge, W is bound by rule 11 to keep clear and by rule 14 to avoid contact.

This case illustrates the fact that two boats on the same leg sailing very near to one another can have different proper courses. Which of two different courses is the faster one to the next mark can not be determined in advance and is not necessarily proven by one boat or the other reaching the next mark ahead.

The basis for W’s protest was that L sailed above her proper course while subject to rule 17. L’s defence and counter-protest were that she had decided that the inshore course out of the tide would result in her finishing sooner and that, therefore, the course she was sailing was her proper course. In addition, L argued that W had broken rules 11 and 14.

The facts found do not show that L sailed above her proper course; therefore she did not break rule 17. When L luffed slowly between positions 1 and 2, W had room to keep clear, so L did not break rule 16.1.

L could have avoided contact with W. By not doing so, she broke rule 14, but is not penalized because the contact caused no damage or injury.

By failing to keep clear of L, W broke rule 11. W could have avoided the contact, and by not doing so she too broke rule 14, but is not exempt from penalization.

L’s appeal is upheld. L is reinstated, and W is disqualified for breaking rules 11 and 14.


Edited by JimC
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Posts: 72 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mike10626 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 10 at 4:46pm

Forgetting the rules for a second, isn't this strategically a bad position for the asymmetric boat to get herself in ?  If she had remained above the symmetric boat he would have got up to speed quicker and got away.  Going below she has to wait until she establishes an overlap, then shout and give the other boat time to get clear before she can power up.

I can see it makes sense in a one design asymmetric fleet as this puts you in the controlling position but for handicap racing doesn't it just slow you down?

I tend to agree the rules are on the side of the asymmetric boat - just not sure of the logic?
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