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RS moving to open development sails?
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    Posted: 06 Feb 19 at 10:57am
Thoughts?

Trickle to other RS classes? 


RS Sailing will grant a licence to any sailmakers who are interested in being a part of the RS21 movement.

There will be a set maximum retail price (ex-tax) to the end user defined in the RS21 class rules. This will be policed by the consumer.
- Licenced RS21 sailmakers will obtain access to the proprietary RS21 class laminate material at a fixed price.
- RS Sailing will provide the sailmaker with detailed class rules and build specification for all sails.
- The customer will pay a royalty sail button fee to the RS21 class through the sailmaker. The royalties will be passed on to the RS21 class for class activity.
- To allow the class to evolve, a class review will be conducted every three years to allow design changes to be discussed.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 19 at 11:15am
The RS21 philosophy has always been a little different, hasn't it?
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 19 at 12:10pm
is this so they can lower the on paper carbon footprint of the boat? 

if they're setting the max retail price and supplying the cloth at a fixed price then why would any sail maker set their price at anything other than the max?

something else in the background must be going on here, taking away their direct responsibility to produce the sails removes some of their costs.

some classes this OS-RSD format will/may work, but for the larger fleets suggest that this model should be avoided and kept SMOD.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 19 at 1:40pm
Very interesting. This might be a toe in the water towards ways of dealing with the challenges brought on by EU monopoly legislation that are also forcing the Olympic single hander trials happening soon.

It will be interesting to see if they can manage to prevent competition based on performance. If they can then we might actually get competition on price within a class. From RS POV it reduces their power to negotiate low prices for sails since the sailmaker who wins the current contract no longer has a guaranteed monopoly, but on the other hand it removes the blame for sail prices from RS.

Its some of the same sort of thinking that was in the Arup skiff proposal for multiple manufacturers. The 21 is probably a good vehicle to try it, because bigger boats tend to throw more money about, so we should see whethe sailors decide there's a perceived fastest brand and pay for it, or alternatively whether they can hold the design to a true one design where no brand is considered better than another.
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Posts: 370 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Old Timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 19 at 6:37pm
Will sailmakers have to follow the RS design or be able to develop their own shapes like say in a Fireball?
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 19 at 9:14pm
Even the strictest One Designs have a tolerance that the makers can exploit so I'd be amazed if a 'fastest' sail didn't appear periodically. Is that is a bad thing? I'm not sure but I think probably not. What to does mean is the sails will have to be measured 'cos the sailmakers will push the tolerances to the limit which partially defeats the SMOD ethos and passes the cost of maintaining it onto the sailor.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 19 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by JimC

Very interesting. This might be a toe in the water towards ways of dealing with the challenges brought on by EU monopoly legislation that are also forcing the Olympic single hander trials happening soon.

It will be interesting to see if they can manage to prevent competition based on performance. If they can then we might actually get competition on price within a class. From RS POV it reduces their power to negotiate low prices for sails since the sailmaker who wins the current contract no longer has a guaranteed monopoly, but on the other hand it removes the blame for sail prices from RS.

Its some of the same sort of thinking that was in the Arup skiff proposal for multiple manufacturers. The 21 is probably a good vehicle to try it, because bigger boats tend to throw more money about, so we should see whethe sailors decide there's a perceived fastest brand and pay for it, or alternatively whether they can hold the design to a true one design where no brand is considered better than another.

It’s hard to see why the major sailmakers would want to be involved in competing on price alone if they can keep busy making more profitable sails for other classes.
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Posts: 267 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jaydub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 19 at 10:22pm
I'm with Peaky.  What's the driver for any sailmaker to get involved?

I can't see RS selling the boat without sails, so there is only the after market to go at and there would appear to be very little room for innovation.

I can't see how any sailmaker is going to differentiate their products.
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 19 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by JimC

Very interesting.

It will be interesting to see if they can manage to prevent competition based on performance. If they can then we might actually get competition on price within a class. From RS POV it reduces their power to negotiate low prices for sails since the sailmaker who wins the current contract no longer has a guaranteed monopoly, but on the other hand it removes the blame for sail prices from RS.


Feel like it reduces likelihood of price reduction due to RS fixing the max sale price and fixing cost prices. Also feels anti competitive due to this format, before you had sail design and production going out to tender for best price from the market, now they’re fixing it for all Manufacturers, not really a consumers dream scenario if the prices is wrong.
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Posts: 32 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PaulPoshW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 19 at 8:55am
What's to stop a sail maker with the fastest design (assuming tolerances are allowed) charging more than the max price?
Should the class take off and attract top teams surely they would pay an extra £ or 2 for the sails most likely to win. And why shouldn't a sail maker who has spent time and money to develop that get something in return?

I wouldn't support this idea trickling into other RS classes. It may mean a more developed sail but it would only lead to price increases and out-dating boats/owners who don't have the money to spend on keeping up.
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