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The Problem with the RYA
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Problem with the RYA
    Posted: 01 Mar 15 at 9:19pm
There is no getting away from the fact that continued existence of the Dinghy Show should be regarded as one of the RYA's successes.  

I also consider that the support that the RYA provides to clubs in the way of support for grant applications and funding is also very positive.

We should not discount the fact that, though we might question the level of resources attributed to British Olympic Sailing, the programme is a great success, and has developed some heroes, which without doubt encourages participation in our sport.

So why the vitriol on Facebook re. The RYA and the BART sponsorship?

I think that the problem is that the RYA are failing to engage with the sector of the sport that probably includes most of the posters on this forum ... The subset comprising dinghy racers who are neither youths or Olympic aspirants.

Over the years the RYA has grown, and whilst sailboat racing was the primary interest of the association in the Woking days, it has expanded it's wings, and we no longer consider our interests to be the primary interests of the RYA.  For instance the Centreboard Committee almost exclusively dealt with dinghy racing matters, whereas dinghy racing forms a fraction of the work of the Technical Committee.

I have met Sarah Tressader and she is a nice lady, full of enthusiasm, but she does not come from the Dinghy background of Rod Carr.

It strikes me that to keep us on board there should be employees within the RYA who's responsibility is to develop and support the sport for non-youth and non-Olympic sailors, if there was a greater focus on this sub-group the RYA might see us paying full subs, rather than allowing our clubs and class associations to pay for us.
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Posts: 1094 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 15 at 9:40pm
Very good post, and I things you say have significant value. I suspect that the RYAs answer would be that they do provide training, assistance and facilities for Clubs, but it is up to the Club to pass the benefits on to the members.
One example of this is the Club Coach training that a number of us did some years ago..... I used the skills learnt with the Oxford Pirates, and with the Novice Racers group, but I think that there's some inherent embarrassment in suggesting coaching days for the rank-and-file Club Racers. It is something I've been discussing with our Commadore, so with some luck we'll be on it soon, but at the time the Club's priority was the Youth and Junior section (which is now a huge success.
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 15 at 10:58pm
As mentioned elsewhere the Youth Squad system is perceived to undermine the Club System as many of us who sailed in the 70's knew it.   There is a perception that if you are a Youth or an Olympic aspirant you have access to high quality coaching, but if you are not part of this subset you don't.

Now this may be a fallacy, but my experience is that the only way to access coaches that are going to help me as a reasonably competent club and championship sailor aged 50+ is to hire in independent coaches, aka Mark Rushall, Charlie Cumbley etc.  Access to any RYA coaching initiative for my subgroup is by no means obvious, if it exists at all.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 15 at 8:48am
It isn't really very hard to find a race coach to come to a club and run a session. They might not be a household name, but will have a vast amount of experience to offer in general. Classes are better situated for this kind of thing, of course, as they are all sailing the same kind of boat. It is harder for a handicap fleet with differing needs.

The RYA has lots of things to offer the average club sailor. But you do have to do some legwork to get it organized and show some imagination in tailoring things to your sailors in return.

The lack of funding for such things has come up before when RYA bashing, too, but it is  hobby, for goodness sake - I'm sure the money can be better spent elsewhere!
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Posts: 192 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodbotherer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 15 at 9:14am
Well they do have one conundrum, in their approach to Sport England for funding, they need to prove participation and in large part that comes from affiliation, numbers from clubs, those clubs equally don't like to have to pay per member, nor I understand do they use the handicap system for that very same reason, the more they declare the more they pay, so a self fulfilling prophesy of reducing numbers arises.

That show has also lost something, can't put my finger exactly on what or why, but it isn't the show of recent years, something (or someone) is missing, it is also absolutely bloody ludicrous that in a small participatory show that is, that nobody takes your name and email address nor checks your membership then bothers to contact you the following year to remind you its on, thereby saving thousands of advertising bucks. It's been eight years now since I went there to buy the Alto and not once, not at the show, nor on a stand has my name and email address been recorded, which kind of gives the lie to just how unprofessional the sport and it's surrounding Industry is, personally I find it quaint and nostalgic, typical fifties business techniques, but really in this day and age, not the way you compete with the rest of us in the leisure Industry, we're going to eat you alive.
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 15 at 9:20am
I am sure the RYA does not set out to be 'bad'

But I remain convinced it either 
  1. does not understand the collateral damage caused by it's Olympic programme which takes in youth sailors, chews them up and spits 99.99% of them out, never to sail again OR 
  2. it thinks that is a price worth paying. 
If the latter, I fundamentally disagree of course

Given that, when I raised this point whilst doing my own coaching badge with our RYA employee assessor, he said "but without those medals virtually none of us at the RYA would have a job."

Frankly m'dear, I don't give damn. But as an observation, most people are reluctant to vote for losing their own job when there is no alternative on offer.

If the RYA continues to be funded, and its performance measured, pretty much solely (when it comes to dinghy sailing particularly) by the medals and world titles won on the 5-circle nonsense, club racing has a sticky future, because the governing body is effectively working against us. It might disagree, but if it does it simply demonstrates its lack of understanding.

The fact is, UK Olympic success has demonstrably not increased grass roots participation. The millions have brought home some shiny shinies, but that's all. 

But do we really think that if those millions had not gone to clubs to use for the same goal, participation would not be greater. Not only could we have built and maintained hire fleets, but coached and encouraged people of all ages that sailing is the ultimate sport whatever your age.

Einstein said that it is a sign of madness to keep doing the same thing expecting a different outcome.

So time for a change of emphasis, RYA, you are currently failing my any objective measure
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 15 at 9:47am
Originally posted by fab100

But do we really think that if those millions had not gone to clubs to use for the same goal, participation would not be greater. Not only could we have built and maintained hire fleets, but coached and encouraged people of all ages that sailing is the ultimate sport whatever your age.

whilst I agree with you, I doubt those millions would exist without the medals and talent pyramid below it, so it's rather a moot point.  And you can't help but look at the predominantly middle-class values in sailing generically to see why Skandia - an investments firm, would be keen to associate.  I doubt 'Bet Fred' would have the same return on investment that's for sure.  

You don't need a V70 to drive 10 miles down the road to your local puddle either -  It becomes rather more desirable when towing a double stacker, two kids and all their associated paraphernalia down to Weymouth to NOT become the next Ben Ainslie....

Here's my take on it.  I agree with Clive's point, however a part of me is also glad their focus is in a direction of the sport I'm a long way removed from.  I sat at my old sailing club eating a bacon butty once listening to the 'Training Officer' getting advice from an RYA bod.  The presentation style was delivered in a non-patronising way, so FWIW, the RYA bod appeared to be doing the job he was paid for 'well' and at least seemed to respect that his 'client' was there in his free time as a volunteer.  But the content of the conversation - my God it was so dry and sterile.  I swear I did not hear the word fun once- either directly or in the sub-text.  If you've ever had an H&S consultant try to murder you at work with a PowerPoint presentation, then this was worse.  It certainly made me realise I wouldn't, probably couldn't, stomach putting up with that style of 'coaching' for my own kids, and it sort of scarred me to the point where I don't plan to introduce my kids to club sailing as a result- we'll continue messing about on holiday with SUPs, windsurfers and the occasional rental barge, and if it's sunny in England and there's a free afternoon, then the front of the D-Zero has plenty enough space for one or two little 'uns.

Where the RYA win big is in representation- or at least the perception of it.  Bottom line, do we really want a Government Department in Whitehall regulating pleasure craft use?  

No.... 

1) it would be punitive and kill the 'beach spirit' which we take for granted
2) it would be costly - 'licences' (for each craft) would probably be more than than your RYA members sub
3) insurance, and the insurance industry would capitalise on it- gone are the good guy attitude of the Nobles and GW Directs....  in comes compo culture and ambulance chasers putting these guys out of business, and our largely good claims culture, out the window with it.

So I still pay an RYA members sub for these reasons alone.  But if I had to 'cut back' I would bin this before my RNLI membership first.  



  
  
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 15 at 10:15am
Originally posted by fab100

I am sure the RYA does not set out to be 'bad'

But I remain convinced it either 
  1. does not understand the collateral damage caused by it's Olympic programme which takes in youth sailors, chews them up and spits 99.99% of them out, never to sail again OR 
  2. it thinks that is a price worth paying. 
If the latter, I fundamentally disagree of course

Given that, when I raised this point whilst doing my own coaching badge with our RYA employee assessor, he said "but without those medals virtually none of us at the RYA would have a job."

Frankly m'dear, I don't give damn. But as an observation, most people are reluctant to vote for losing their own job when there is no alternative on offer.

If the RYA continues to be funded, and its performance measured, pretty much solely (when it comes to dinghy sailing particularly) by the medals and world titles won on the 5-circle nonsense, club racing has a sticky future, because the governing body is effectively working against us. It might disagree, but if it does it simply demonstrates its lack of understanding.

The fact is, UK Olympic success has demonstrably not increased grass roots participation. The millions have brought home some shiny shinies, but that's all. 

But do we really think that if those millions had not gone to clubs to use for the same goal, participation would not be greater. Not only could we have built and maintained hire fleets, but coached and encouraged people of all ages that sailing is the ultimate sport whatever your age.

Einstein said that it is a sign of madness to keep doing the same thing expecting a different outcome.

So time for a change of emphasis, RYA, you are currently failing my any objective measure


Great post.

I think the one area where the RYA has fallen down, is not in the nature or focus of the Olympic campaign or the squad development program - it's the apparent complete absence of a plan B for all those either not in that franchise to start off with, or who drop out of it for one reason or another.  Absolutely get the funding flow that comes to them as a pinnacle sport program and part of BOA, but surely there is other funding they could tap into to increase and maintain participation, get more kids on the water etc..?


Edited by getafix - 02 Mar 15 at 10:15am
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Posts: 714 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 15 at 10:51am

I’ve never got my head round the concept of the RYA chewing up and spitting out youth sailors.

 

People (parents and youths) need to take some responsibility for their own lives.

 

My kids have been part of the RYA programme. My eldest went up the pyramid as far as Laser Radial, he was never going to be an Olympian but he enjoyed it and learnt a lot. He also played an active part in club racing as soon as he got out of the Optimist (which was too slow for handicap racing at our place), and into a 4.7.  When he got to the point where he missed out on the youth squad and wasn’t enjoying it so much he decided he was going to knock the youth stuff on the head and enjoy club racing, fed week, local open etc.

 

Nobody spat him anywhere.

 

 

I’ve sat in many de-briefs where RYA coaches have said things along the lines of “try this out in your club racing”, but I’ve also witnessed many youth sailors (and especially their parents) who think that club racing is beneath them because they are the next Ainslie. My perception is that the RYA think their youths are involved at a club racing level, but a lot are not because them/their parents know best.

 

Maybe these are the ones who get spat out, because they don’t engage with the sport beyond squads and organised training.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 15 at 11:10am
Gareth, your experience tallies far more closely with mine that the "spat out" idea, though I'm sure that in some places that does happen. The RYA set the guidelines for race coaching and train the trainers, but when it comes down to it, each place and class runs things in slightly different ways, so I'm sure that some have a better time than others.

As a parent with kids exactly the right age and experience for doing the squad thing, I've looked into going that route, but for different reasons, neither is interested. One is quite happy pootling around in a Topper or whatever else is to hand, the other sees no difference between racing against adults or yoofs, and in fact finds the variety of people and places you get in a grown up class for more interesting.

Either way, both are getting decent teaching for their needs, with RYA trained external coaches coming to the club on occasion, and the rest of the time being taught by RYA trained club members,  who are either DIs or race coaches.

SO, the RYA is involved. We are using RYA courses, RYA trained staff and are an RYA approved training centre. Yet we have, as far as I'm aware, never spat anyone out.
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