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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Swimming = need for education
    Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 10:06pm
I'm not going to hijack the Aero thread further with rants about swimming, not being able to recover from capsizes etc etc etc.

But the topic is driving me a bit nuts.

Firstly, going swimming is simply disrespectful to a billion years of evolution back through your family tree; it's simply an unforgivable, wrong thing to do, a serious mistake.

Secondly, ending up swimming (in the vast majority of dinghies, there might be a couple exceptions) just shows errors in technique (or maintenance if the toe-straps break). For heavens sake, just keep hold of the boat (or a sheet, any darn thing) and either boom walk and climb over the top onto the plate, or if you are slow and it inverts, still no need to end up in the oggin. Don't fight lost causes, just get motivated to stay out of the soup. Pretend there are piranha fish and hungry sharks in there if that helps.

The only person I've seen with a justifiable reason for swimming was Mr Kneewrecker/Yellow-welly (or whoever he was that week) showing off, whilst in the heyday of his love affair with the 100, when he produced a wonderful, clowning video of different ways to mess up and fall in. And look what happened after that - the relationship went horribly sour.

So here's a controversial proposition. For 95%+ of dinghy sailors, there is no excuse to end up in the water more than once for every 100 capsizes. If you do and you can't get back in, it's not the boat designers fault.

Having said all this, I did once find myself flying around the kite-luff of a 14 when 0.25 seconds before we were planing along quite happily, albeit just after me saying to Mike "isn't it bit shallow here?" so my bad. But as we'd almost immediately then run aground rather hard, swimming transpired to be rather unnecessary, given the bit of Chichester harbour I found myself in transpired to be only 15 inches deep.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 10:18pm
All very well said from the comfort of Frensham POND

You come down here, bring your typewriter, we'll teach you how to write a book about swimming.

The last time for me was a snapped footstrap

One of the times before that was the mast falling down unexpectedly.

sh*t happens, you need to know how to swim and swim fast enough to stay out of trouble.

On proper water that is, where there aren't lily pads to go and sit on whilst you wait for the rescue boat to make that arduous 50 yard dash.
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 10:24pm
missing the toestraps just happens clive, sure it must have done to you. Now it ain't bad technique, its bad luck
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by maxibuddah

missing the toestraps just happens clive, sure it must have done to you. Now it ain't bad technique, its bad luck


many times Maxi, to the extent I have a conditioned reflex to let go of the tiller extension and keep hold of the mainsheet. 

And I did say 99 times out of 100, there is no need...
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 11:12pm
Thumbs Up Fab100, although your percentages could be a little harsh. 

Posted: 19 Nov 14 at 7:52pm
"I don't get the enthusiasm for all this swimming about. Alright, I admit it, I'm slightly water phobic and not trained in the method as I've occasionally seen our RYA level whatever doing.

Swimming is tiring and water is cold.

If I miss the dry capsize I'm clambering on top by whatever means. When had a Laser it would most often invert. The RS300 if I was quick I could run up the boom, foot on mast base body close to hull and over to plate. Big boat mostly one of us makes the board dry and helps the other one either onto the board as well or pulls up with mate in water hanging off windward shroud depending on which way she's lying. 

My point is why mess around in the water, get on top pronto  pull up, walk as she comes and swing over. 

Exception to this mindset is of course shallow water, especially if waves.

I do think as previously mentioned that lots of boats float too high on their sides but we've done that elsewhere."

GRF For the life of me I don't get the chest puffing assertion that swimming about in the sea such a great idea; I'm an East Coaster and all the proper Fishermen I ever heard thought it was a pretty silly enterprise.
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 14 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by iGRF

All very well said from the comfort of Frensham POND

You come down here, bring your typewriter, we'll teach you how to write a book about swimming.

The last time for me was a snapped footstrap

One of the times before that was the mast falling down unexpectedly.

sh*t happens, you need to know how to swim and swim fast enough to stay out of trouble.

On proper water that is, where there aren't lily pads to go and sit on whilst you wait for the rescue boat to make that arduous 50 yard dash.

Oh grumph, assume, assume, yadda yadda yadda. The first half of my sailing life involved growing up by the sea and circuit sailing all over the place in all sorts of boats. The present is not necessarily a good indicator of the past. Like most, I too have done some crazy things in the past.

But for what its worth, as far as I can recall, my only need of a safety boat in the last 25 years was when I broke a boom at the wrong end of the Rutland . No swimming involved 

My point remains. Too many people find themselves needing "to swim and swim fast' because when things started to go wrong they did not react in a way that kept them from the need for swimming. This is not an 'elf 'n' safety point I am trying to make either. In the context of a sailing race, going swimming is flippin' slow. Focus on getting on the board without the Mark Spitz impressions and you are back racing far more quickly. Hydrophobia is fast. (used to sail a boat called hydrophobia, and it was fast too)

BTW, does a mast ever fall down expectedly? And if those 2 events are not covered by my "1 in 100", you have different issues to address.
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jaydub View Drop Down
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Posts: 267 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jaydub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 14 at 7:41am
This is so boat dependent.  I used to sail an Enterprise and could nearly always get on the board during a capsize.  Now we sail a 200 and where the board is that much further forward and I always end up in the water.  Hopefully my crew ends up on the board, but since my crew is my missus she often lets me down. ;)

The 200 isn't a great boat for running up the boom as the shrouds get in the way before you get high enough to climb over the deck (and I've damaged a brand new drysuit trying), so it tends to be better to swim round (often getting caught in the mainsheet bridle on the way!).

One thing I am in total agreement with is that it is far quicker to stay out of the water if you can; it's just that I think it's more possible on some boats than others.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 14 at 7:55am
Swimming is good for the soul- and reminds us this is a proper watersport. If you want your slacks and blazers to stay dry, take up Punting in Cambridge.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 14 at 8:28am
Personally, I'm hydrophobic. I sail in order to stay dry - if I wanted to swim, I'd go to a swimming pool. BUT, I can think of several occasions when the crash has been hard enough for me to fly over the front of the boat - the Tonic springs to mind, where it wasn't a case of "oh sh*t, splash" but "splash, oh sh*t. Certainly no time to think about taking the mainsheet with me.

I did notice that the 30 year old toestraps in the Lightning appear to be torn at one end - maybe I should splash out on some new webbing...
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 14 at 8:48am
Originally posted by fab100

Firstly, going swimming is simply disrespectful to a billion years of evolution back through your family tree; it's simply an unforgivable, wrong thing to do, a serious mistake.
Secondly, ending up swimming (in the vast majority of dinghies, there might be a couple exceptions) just shows errors in technique (or maintenance if the toe-straps break).blah blah blah if you read my book you wouldn't have to swim


There I should have just done that, ftfy rather than explain in an ironic riposte that some of us despite inordinately high skills are forced to swim on occasion by events other than those that might be fixed by your advice AND you'd better be skilled at swimming before you take up dinghy sailing on the sea, it's irresponsible to suggest otherwise, or to even suggest you have some miracle cure that mitigates lack of swimming skill - alright? Does that explain it better?

Personally I'd have left it at the ironical quips.. And yes the Mast does fall down expectedly but usually with the boat bit still attached, it's called a capsize.

Edited by iGRF - 27 Nov 14 at 8:51am
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