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sapspec View Drop Down
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Posts: 4 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sapspec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Protest procedure
    Posted: 20 Nov 14 at 8:47pm
Hi:
So, I was involved in a minor bump during a series club race.
Briefly, I was on port when a starboard boat called me - I tacked & there was a minor collision.
I was called to do turns, but I thought I could argue the case that I had completed my tack & the other boat had become windward & I now had right of way.
Anyway the protest went ahead & I was found guilty & disqualified, but my gripe remains. Later I checked my rule book I found rule 61.2 requires the protest to be detailed in writing - not done and 63.2 the protest information made available and reasonable time to prepare --- not done.
Also 63.5 requires that the protest committee is to check the validity of the protest - not done (rule 61.2 not met)
I know my objections may seem a bit petty, but after all I was disqualified under Rule 10 and the rules I have quoted are in the same book.
How to proceed?
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 14 at 9:27pm
http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/racingrules/Pages/appeals.aspx

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RacingRules/RYA%20Guidance%20-%20Appeals%20and%20Requests%20for%20Confirmation%20or%20Correction.pdf

I'll leave you to ponder the political implications. 
 




Edited by Presuming Ed - 20 Nov 14 at 9:28pm
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andymck View Drop Down
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 14 at 11:28pm
The hearing can be done like that under the RYA advisory hearing protocol. But then they can only advise you to gracefully retire. You could insist on a formal hearing after, but rarely would it be worth it.

Andy
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 14 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by sapspec

Hi:
So, I was involved in a minor bump during a series club race.
Briefly, I was on port when a starboard boat called me - I tacked & there was a minor collision.
I was called to do turns, but I thought I could argue the case that I had completed my tack & the other boat had become windward & I now had right of way.
Anyway the protest went ahead & I was found guilty & disqualified, but my gripe remains. Later I checked my rule book I found rule 61.2 requires the protest to be detailed in writing - not done and 63.2 the protest information made available and reasonable time to prepare --- not done.
Also 63.5 requires that the protest committee is to check the validity of the protest - not done (rule 61.2 not met)
I know my objections may seem a bit petty, but after all I was disqualified under Rule 10 and the rules I have quoted are in the same book.
How to proceed?

What you have described is a pretty dodgy protest hearing IF it all happened as you described.

Leaving validity aside, the fundamental thing you need to think about is whether you got a fair hearing on the substantive facts and whether the protest committee made a reasonable decision.  If that's the case, for a club race, it's not usually sensible to appeal.  As PEd says, you need to consider the politics.

It's not sensible to appeal just in order to 'punish' the protest committee, who, after all are your fellow sailors, trying to do the best they can, for procedural errors, if it doesn't make much difference.

It's a little odd for you to be disqualified for breaking rule 10 when there was contact after you were on the same tack as the other boat  It's not, however, impossible:  maybe the protest committee concluded that you had failed to keep clear (other boat needed to take action to avoid you) before you passed head to wind in your tack.

The first step to an appeal is to obtain the protest committee's written decision.  To do this, you need to ask for it in writing no later than seven days after being informed of the decision (rule 65.2).  You may need to get your skates on.

You say you think the protest was not detailed in writing and thus not valid in accordance with rule 61.2.

Rule 61.2 does not require the protest to be detailed in writing.

All that is required by rule 61.2 is that there is a piece of paper with writing that identifies the incident, and states when and where (in a very broad variety of ways, but functionally sufficient for you to identify the incident) (rule 61.2( b )), and sufficiently identify the protestee enough to get them into the protest room.

Are you seriously saying that there was a protest hearing without any written protest at all?

You say you think you were not provided with the protest information and allowed a reasonable time to prepare in accordance with rule 63.2.

Are you saying that you were never given a written protest, came into the protest hearing room, never had the incident described to you before the hearing and the hearing immediately began?

Or are you saying that you were given protest information, but not allowed enough time?

What you described was a pretty simple rule 10, 11, 13, 15 incident.  I would consider 5 to 10 minutes ample time to prepare.  You might argue that you were all ready to defend rule 13/15, and then got ambushed by rule 10, but I wouldn't like your chances.

You say the protest committee did not consider validity as required by rule 63.5.

The protest committee is certainly required to consider validity, but they are not required to make a song and dance about it.  In particular consider RYA Appeal 1999/1 "A protest committee need
not investigate [validity in detail] when no question of delay arises in the written protest, and when the protestee, when asked, makes no objection."

We normally say that if a protest committee actually continues a hearing, takes evidence and makes a decision, that implies that they have decided the protest is valid, without that decision necessarily being documented in the written protest decision.

Bear in mind that if an Appeal Committee found that the protest committee had not considered validity, then they could just send the protest back to have validity considered.

If you were really worried about validity and the above issues, then you should have raised the problem with the protest committee at the start of the hearing.  Did you do that?  If you did not you have  a rather weak case.




  



Edited by Brass - 21 Nov 14 at 1:13am
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sapspec View Drop Down
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Posts: 4 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sapspec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 14 at 12:25am
Thanks indeed for your replies, I'm especially impressed by Brass, who covers all the bases!
Your early expression  of a 'dodgy protest hearing' is absolutely correct.
Not only was the protest not detailed, it was not written either! No script was presented to me before or during the hearing.
I am saying that I was never given a written protest, came into the protest hearing room, never had the incident described to me before the hearing and the hearing immediately began.
The protestor merely stood before a blackboard & presented his case, after which he introduced a witness that I was not aware of until that moment.
I am making the point here that I had no opportunity to canvass for my own witnesses.
Could you please consider my case solely on the rule 61.2 lack of written protest?
You make the point that the committee members are my own club members, doing their best & I totally agree - I have absolutely no intention to appeal, but I still think that 61.2 is valid and the verdict should be set aside.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 14 at 1:01am
Originally posted by andymck

The hearing can be done like that under the RYA advisory hearing protocol. But then they can only advise you to gracefully retire. You could insist on a formal hearing after, but rarely would it be worth it.


Can't go to Advisory Hearing unless:
  1. it's in the NOR and/or SI and/or on the Notice Board;  and
  2. the protesting boat tells the other boat that they are requesting/have requested an Advisory Hearing;
  3. the other boat agrees to an Advisory Hearing.
The normally expected outcome of an advisory hearing where a boat accepts that she has broken a rule would be that the boat would take an Exoneration Penalty.  Any invitation or suggestion that she should retire would be grossly improper.

You can't have both an Advisory Hearing and a formal protest.  You can't run an Advisory hearing unless the race office checks that all competitors concerned are willing to attend and do not intend to lodge a protest or ask for redress (so you time the Advisory Hearing to finish after the Protest Time Limit <g>).


Edited by Brass - 21 Nov 14 at 1:43am
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 14 at 1:07am
Originally posted by sapspec

Thanks indeed for your replies, I'm especially impressed by Brass, who covers all the bases!
Your early expression  of a 'dodgy protest hearing' is absolutely correct.
Not only was the protest not detailed, it was not written either! No script was presented to me before or during the hearing.
I am saying that I was never given a written protest, came into the protest hearing room, never had the incident described to me before the hearing and the hearing immediately began.
The protestor merely stood before a blackboard & presented his case, after which he introduced a witness that I was not aware of until that moment.
I am making the point here that I had no opportunity to canvass for my own witnesses.
Could you please consider my case solely on the rule 61.2 lack of written protest?
You make the point that the committee members are my own club members, doing their best & I totally agree - I have absolutely no intention to appeal, but I still think that 61.2 is valid and the verdict should be set aside.

Glad you found the post helpful.

As Ed says, what you do next is a matter of club politics and politeness.

Given that you are not racing for the prize of a sheep station covering half the Western District, I guess what you should have uppermost in your mind is how can racing and club life at your club be made better.

Here are two possible approaches, the contrast between which should be obvious:
  1. have a friendly chat with the Sailing Secretary or the Flag Officer in charge of racing and express your concerns, maybe with some written notes that can be handed over.
  2. promptly but politely email or write the the Protest Committee (care of the club) asking to be provided with a copy of the written protest and the protest committee's written decision in accordance with rule 65.2 ' so as to enable you to consider whether to appeal'.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 14 at 7:16am
Ultimately though is it possible that you break the rule? If the process was badly and casually handled, but the result was probably right is getting into heavy sea lawyering going to make your life or anyone else's any better?

Supposing you appeal. I think what would most likely happen is that the PC will be instructed to reopen the protest and additional witnesses can be called. Are there additional witnesses whose evidence will be so compelling that the decision will be changed? It may be unlikely.

I fear a lot of clubs are not very good at protest hearings because they do hardly any of them. Might it be better just to write/email the sailing sec to say that you thought it was all a bit too casual?

It's my bitter experience that if you don't get everyone into a protest hearing at the first possible opportunity if not before then someone will go home and you are stuck with trying to organise something at some future date, and it will take weeks... Perhaps your club has similar experience and were simply trying to get the hearing started while everyone was still there?

Edited by JimC - 21 Nov 14 at 7:26am
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sapspec View Drop Down
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Posts: 4 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sapspec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 14 at 11:13am
We have a result - that without resorting to any further action on my part. The Protest Committee chairman has just called & accepted that 61.2 had not been met.
Thank you indeed for your contributions - they really helped me accept that there ARE shades of grey.
JimC hit the nail on the head 'I fear a lot of clubs are not very good at protest hearings because they do hardly any of them'.
Ours is a small club with no class racing although we sponsor one pursuit race at the weekend which groups the major classes.
That is not to say we lack experience, we number an Endevour trophy winner & a couple ex national champions amongst our members. It's just that we tend to pay lip service to the rules as regards minor bumps - in fact my current protest is the only one in the last 4 years!
Obviously our travelling members are much more circumspect when attending opens.
Anyway, this weekend is our last series of the year - is yours just starting Brass?
Good luck & thanks again.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 14 at 11:54am
Good common sense from JimC.

Glad you got a better result.

The RYA tries hard to help protest committees:



If you haven't got these aids, flip the rule book open to Appendix M and follow the steps there.

Summer racing starts in September, but we race all winter long


Gearing up for Hobart now.







Edited by Brass - 21 Nov 14 at 12:47pm
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