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Continuous Obstruction |
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davidyacht 
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Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
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 Topic: Continuous ObstructionPosted: 28 Sep 14 at 6:05pm |
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How do you prove that you have room between an outside boat and a continuous obstruction such as a beach at the point of obtaining the inside overlap? In a situation at the weekend I believed this to be the case, on the basis that I considered that I could see a clear route between the shelving beach and the outside boat, however this was challenged.
My belief in addition to the fact that I considered the gap to be there, was that I had a different view on how close to the beach that I could go, compared with the outside boat. At the time I had my centreplate up, and my rudder uncleated (but down). The outside boat had his rudder down and his plate more down than mine). It was only after he luffed me into the beach that the rudder popped up, therefore there must have been water for me in the first place, since the gap only disappeared when he had completed the luffing manoeuvre.
No collision took place until we reached an obstruction, a slipway projecting from the beach, when the other party would not give me water since he did not consider that I had rights to be there in the first place. There was no animosity since we don't believe in taking things off the water ... but I think we would both be intrigued to understand how Rule 19.2(c) works for boats with differing drafts or with helmsmen with different opinions on what is safe. Also he never said protest! |
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Medway Maniac
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Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788 |
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Posted: 28 Sep 14 at 7:43pm |
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I recently sat on a protest committee dealing with this very subject, and scoured the web for precedents. There are few, but "Elvström Explains..." has a short commentary.
My take on this, till Brass comes along to correct me, would be that if you did not run aground when you became overlapped, the overtaken boat held her course and you still did not run aground while completing the overtaking manoeuvre, then you would have proved your case, as the onus was on you to do. There would most certainly have been room for you to pass between shore and boat. If, as in the present instance, there was a dispute, then the overtaken boat should give you the opportunity to prove your case by holding her course. If she luffs, then she is denying you the opportunity to prove your case and is certainly not giving you the room that she would be required to do under rule 19.2(b). The onus would then be on the luffing boat to prove that you did not have room to pass at the moment the overlap began - tricky. I can imagine a more liberal interpretation according to which it might be argued that provided you did not run aground at the moment you established the overlap then you were entitled to room, but I wouldn't want to rely on it. It would all depend upon how the words "there is not room for her to pass between them" were interpreted. Do the words mean "if the overtaken boat remained stationary the overtaking boat could pass without running aground", or as I have considered above, "provided the overtaking boat does not luff and both boats continue on their respective courses then the overtaking boat could pass without running aground". I'd say both interpretations can validly be made, but the overtaking boat can only prove her case by actually competing the overtaking manoeuvre, and the overtaken boat can only prove the contrary if she does not luff. So both boats should hold their respective courses.
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Brass
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Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 7:52am |
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MM has the advantage of me: I've never done a protest involving rule 19.2( c ). I thought I might have to pass on this one and leave it to Gordon, but fortunately the commentary books are of some assistance.
Dave Perry in Understanding the RRS (the US Sailing standard commentary) says: ... imagine that the moment the overlap between A and the obstruction is made, you could 'freeze' the motion of A and the obstruction. If there is enough physical space for B to sail through between them in a seamanlike way (meaning sailing the boat in its normal way without risk of touching either the obstruction or the outside boat) without touching either then the overlap is legal and A must give B room under rule 19.2 ( b )... One sensitive situation occurs when A is sailing as close as she dares to shore but it's not obvious how close a boat ... can really go without running aground. Boat B comes up and wants to obtain an inside overlap. The question becomes 'How do you determine if there is room for to pass inside of A?' Trevor Lewis in the RYA The Racing Rules Explained also relies on the 'freezing' or 'snapshot' approach. To prove her entitlement, the inside boat only has to not touch bottom while passing through the area between the obstruction and where the outside boat was at the time of becoming overlapped. Perhaps a good way to look at it is from the outside boat's point of view. If you are sailing as close to the shore as you think seamanlike, and a give way boat becomes overlapped inside you from clear astern, then, if she's still there after you have sailed one or two boatlengths, then she has demonstrated she is entitled to room, and you had better give it. If, on the other hand, she's not still overlapped inside you, but is stuck on the bricks, then she was never entitled to inside room in the first place. Either way, the outside boat needs to be very careful about luffing or (if she has rule 19.2( c ) rigt of way bearing away) towards the obstruction: if she changes course and forces the inside boat onto the obstruction, then she is going to have failed to give the inside boat room to keep clear and broken rule 16. David mentioned a second incident, following the incident were 'the rudder popped up' where a second obstruction, a slipway projecting from the beach, was encountered and the outside boat did not give room and contact occurred. No matter what, assuming that there was nothing outside the outside boat to hinder her giving room, she has, if it was reasonably possible to avoid contact, broken rule 14, and if there was damage or injury, is not entitled to exoneration. Case 33 indicates that a wall, jetty, or slipway projecting out from a shoreline should be considered as a separate non-continuing obstruction. At this new obstruction rule 19.2( b ) will apply and rule 19.2( c ) will not. If it is possible for the outside boat to give the inside boat room to pass she must do so. Note that this test is different from the test in rule 19.2 ( c ) (able to give room versus not room to pass).
Edited by Brass - 29 Sep 14 at 12:07pm |
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Medway Maniac
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Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 9:16am |
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So, no glaring contradictions on this one, and in future if I'm overtaking boat I'll be leaving it a good few boat-lengths before calling for water, while as overtaken boat I'll be making sure I'm as far in as possible before the overlap is established then grimly holding my course till the overlap is well and truly established and the call has been made.
I might even, as o'taken boat, call that "there's no water in there" before the overlap is established. No legal effect, of course, but fair warning and it puts the o'taking boat on his mettle to prove there was room before calling for room. Actually, I remember reading years ago a commentary in a respected journal (maybe Y&Y!) wherein the advice was to call 'no water' then never to give room, and that if you didn't hail then the other guy could ask for water as soon as he was overlapped. I can find absolutely no basis for that, however, either in the current rules or those for 1969 (which I asked for and got as a school prize!), and which are pretty similar. Can anyone shed any light on that or also remember the article?
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davidyacht
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Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 10:15am |
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Thanks for the update. I can now see that you need to think about what happens while sailing the first boat length after establishing the overlap, if you manage this then I guess it is game over from the perspective of the outside boat having rights.
However the part that I am not entirely convinced about is whether it is acceptable to go into the gap on half rudder, and to say "I have half rudder and you don't, so I can pass through".
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davidyacht
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Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 10:27am |
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Thinking about this a little more, if the outside boat luffs to defend the spot after the overlap has been established, in doing the luff she will quite possibly have demonstrated that there was sufficient depth for the inside boat to have got through ... so seems to me that the only way to defend is to sail as close to the beach that anyone would risk and never allow for the opportinity for an overlap to occur. Once the overlap is established the outside boat is probably in a no win situation (I was going to say between a rock and a hard place but this would only confuse!).
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Brass
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Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 12:46pm |
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I've said my piece before about this 'calling for water' yammer yammer yammer. Except for a hail of 'protest' or a hail in accordance with rule 20, hails have no effect on the entitlements of boats while racing. I think this is particularly demonstrated in this case as we have discussed: either the inside boat piles up on the bricks demonstrating that she never was entitled to room, or she doesn't, and is thus entitled to room. No amount of hailing back and forth is going to affect things. 'leaving it a good few boat lengths' is probably overkill: if you sail one boat length after becoming overlapped you will have traversed all of the space between the outside boat and the obstruction that was there at the moment the overlap began and that is all that is necessary.
See above: the 'call' has no effect on anybody's entitlements, and if you fail to give room because you didn't hear a 'call' you will probably break rule 19.2( b ). How big an overlap the inside boat gains has no effect on her entitlement: is she sails one boat length overlapped by 6 inches, she has done the job.
But you wouldn't want to make a mistake and have the inside boat prove it by sailing through without touching: then you would have made a false hail ...
Heh, heh. Your 1969 rules missed out by just one version. The 1973 rules introduced 'insufficiency of room' into the things that might be hailed about.
So, up to the removal of the hailing at marks and obstructions rule in the 1995 rewrite, 'no water' might have been a good call (although still risky of you got it wrong). |
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Brass
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Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 1:01pm |
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This quote from Trevor Lewis The Racing Rules Explained (2009) is, at least, interesting
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Medway Maniac
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Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 1:10pm |
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So, after having sailed your one length overlapped, how is the outside boat supposed to know when you later need more water, alright, room unless you tell them?
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Brass
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Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 14 at 1:22pm |
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By looking and seeing, the same as you? He's only going to be about a metre away from where you are sitting. But the rules aren't interested in what boats (and their skippers) 'know' they deal with what boats 'do'. Once you're in there, it's all on the outside boat. By all means tell him if he looks like not giving you the room that you need, but it doesn't affect entitlements in any way.
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