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| Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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| Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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| Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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why we love the class system |
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fab100 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 15 Mar 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1005 |
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 Topic: why we love the class systemPosted: 27 Sep 14 at 6:11pm |
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Because it completely confuses and annoys grumph
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iGRF
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Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 6:18pm |
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Are you Rich 96 as well then?
The class system is finished, dead, it just won't lie down and go away. The future is club racing on handicap and big 'showcase' handicap events, with a few exceptions where there are historic reasons, like alcoholics collecting together for self support in the Merlins and the impecunious co op that is GP 14's, or help the aged and national socialism in Solo's. |
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 6:51pm |
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Its amusing to note that without classes our handicap system won't work... |
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Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 7:00pm |
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That is indeed a paradox. Ammunition for GRFs measurement system thoughh...
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iGRF
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Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 7:06pm |
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Er you've got your handicap system to work? When did that happen? Until you have a fixed measurement as a start point it's never going to work. |
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fab100
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Joined: 15 Mar 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1005 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 7:26pm |
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Please don't put words in my mouth. Sailing does not just happen in the UK. Elsewhere, there seems to be far less focus on being inventive and individualistic - so sailing is significantly more class based in most overseas countries. Sailing is not only club racing either, just because GRF does not travel. There are still lots of people packing their boats up and driving around the country to sail against boats of the same type. You only need to read the homepage of the Y&Y website to see its going on all over the place. So lots of us do want to experience some decent racing, but you can't have it both ways. You say here that class racing is dead but elsewhere claim that the system for handicap racing is corrupt, fixed and gerrymandered (although why anyone would be bothered to conspire against you I cannot imagine). So surely, by your account, that's doomed too. Perhaps it's time for you to change your forum ID to Private Fraser. "We're all dooooomed" And as a matter of interest, given you don't travel to sail, how many dinghy clubs have you actually sailed at in the last 5 years to see if your view, err, holds water? Five? Six? How many times have you raced outside Kent? Two? Just because you cannot accept absolutely any compromise in what you sail, does not mean others feel the same way. Hence <queue apoplexy> some of the country's most successful and fiercely competitive sailors gather on the Hamble river on summer evenings and race these things shown below, called Foxers. Now it cannot be for the glamour can it? So it's the class racing. QED. The concept is not going to go away, whether you like it or not. I could even argue that the clubs that will, long term, be successful, will be the ones that do everything they can to encourage class racing (almost all in designs you will inevitably disparage) whilst tolerating handicap racing as a necessary evil. Oh, and one other thing. Anyone who actually wants to get reasonably good at this dinghy racing malarky will class race - because it provides proper bench-marking and (relatively) excuse free competition. In handicap racing there is always an excuse. The PYS is wrong, the wind was not right for my chosen weapon, the course favoured other boats, the tide favoured them not me etc etc etc. Now you can accuse me of hypocrisy by all means, I do handicap race my 100 at my club, although we now have 3 regular 100 sailors. But I try and do the circuit too and also class race a Laser and RS200 at the club and events  |
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iGRF
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Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 7:51pm |
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Lots of people don't travel, the majority I would guess don't travel, travelling these days is a total hassle, if you're not parked up on the M25 you risk being sideswiped by some East European video watching trucker. There's one guy at our club who travels, he's old school, does the Contender events and other than local derbys like the Round Sheppy which is only an hours drive, nobody does.
It could be argued that a more regional approach should be considered. And anyway, you've got it, what are you so defensive about? My opinion is hardly going to change anything, but the fact is I suspect things are changing so surely better to prepare for what the future may have in store? High fuel costs, congestion, high hotel & B&B charges, degraded disposable income, they are all taking their toll. Funny I came very close to moving to Norfolk so was researching sailing clubs up there, Wroxham broad SC came up, i took one look at their classes and dictatorial attitude and crossed them straight off the list. If all that sailing was, to be sailing that old dross, it might be enough to force me onto the Golf course. Foxers? So, a school for the mentally retarded has selected it as their class,  sorry not for me and likewise if that was all there was... We all have freedom of will and don't want to be dictated to, particularly if you have had a life of sailing variety.
I like the idea of sailing a few boats of similar dimension and performance scratch, that would appeal, as I'd equally be supportive of a box Formula 1 single hander development class with the caveat that it be easy to use, quite how you could legislate for that I don't know (If left alone the boat must stay vertical maybe). Anyway the times we live in are quite dynamic, who knows what's around the corner, but class racing, it will only be at the expense of itself, for one to grow another will shrink and that i think you can be pretty sure of. Edited by iGRF - 27 Sep 14 at 7:57pm |
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fab100
Really should get out more
Joined: 15 Mar 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1005 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 7:51pm |
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But that won't work either - it's been proven. In every one design that is not a SMOD, as a matter of necessity, there are tolerances in the hull shape written into the rules. Manufacturers compete to create the fastest shape, within tolerances that are only a few mm. How on earth is your measurement system going to cope with that? In lead-mine/caravan racing, IOR racing and other rule systems like One-ton, 12metre etc, measurement based systems present even more nonsenses that the PYS. In those instances, counter-intuitively, the designer is not trying to find the fastest shape, but to find a way of making the measurement system think the shape is slow when actually its not. So the game becomes about manipulating the rule and getting a slower 'rating', not being a better sailor. Good grief, all those huge over-lapping genoas on 70 yachts were there because the rule assumed the jib was no bigger that the size of the fore-triangle (mast/fore-deck/forestay). Nonsense like that may suit you, but it's not for me thanks. So your idea won't work (as Mr Holman has I think also warned you in a far more educated way than I ever could). But I accept that there is an inherent flaw in the PYS system too. If one class is solely raced by beginners who have only just passed their RYA level One, and another only sailed by Olympic squaddies (470 anyone), you are of course not comparing like-for-like. So the true bandit is not the Phantom at its 5-years ago number but something that time forgot - an Otter or Heron or a beginners boat not raced by the experienced (RS Vision?) So IMHO, you will never achieve a fair handicap system. Live with it, or come class racing |
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Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 8:48pm |
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Singlehander class based on old scow moths? Seems to be a bit of a revival down under.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/447722085340660/permalink/625251940921006/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/447722085340660/permalink/627955980650602/ |
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JohnJack
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 12 Mar 13 Online Status: Offline Posts: 246 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 14 at 9:36pm |
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Having a box rule doesn't work.
Take the Merlin Rocket's for example, which is essentially a box rule. It has seen plenty of developments over the 60(?) years the class has existed. A boat today is discernibly different to a boat 30, even 15 years ago. However today's Merlins are essentially a One Design. The class is still trying to shake the 'expensive' tag from the times when Merlin racing was part arms race. The other thing GRF mentions is easy to sail. Classes that have have a box rule tend to be tweaker's boats as pretty much anything goes, raking rigs, pullers, pushers, struts, rams and all types of knitting like sail control systems. Stands up by itself, a Laser will fall over if you leave in unattended on the water. |
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