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Protests and the first reasonable opportunity |
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davidyacht ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 1:37pm |
At several recent championships I understand that protests have been slung out on the grounds of incorrect procedure by the protestor. Rule 61.1 (a) states that a boat intending to protest shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity ... she shall hail "protest".
I understand that by shouting "do your turns" or "720" said before "protest" presents the technicality that lets the protestee off the hook. At a recent event I saw a protest form where the protestee quite clearly used this defence ... "the protestor did not say Protest untill after "do a 720". I have always thought it more sporting to offer the offender to do their turns, before ramping things up to threatening to protest. In my opinion ISAF should encourage the offer of the lesser penalty, before resorting to Protest. I have posted this in this section because I believe that this should be of more general interest. Any thoughts?
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jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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the rules are simple and do state that. I think the ISAF should issue some clarification on this though especially for club racing where it is more friendly to advise someone of an infringment and request they do turns before issuing the word protest.
At championship level though the word protest should be the first word out of your mouth. Just my opinion......
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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blaze720 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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Hence "Protest ... or turns" maybe. Still a bit heavy handed imo.
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fish n ships ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Jul 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 71 |
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Seems a little pedantic, as long as they said "Protest" and it was heard by the other boat it shouldn't matter what else is said around it (unless abusive language etc in which case Rule 69 kicks in).
You could carry on the logic along the lines of well they said "tack quick" to their crew before shouting protest. I heard this so the first thing they said wasn't protest... Equally in a high wind involving a capsize on behalf of the aggrieved party the first opportuninty could be on the hard after the race, do the crew have to remain silent until they see the other boat and say Protest? Edited by fish n ships - 11 Aug 14 at 2:43pm |
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jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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If you are capsized and the other party is too far away then informing them after the race is permissible as that would be the first available opportunity.
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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The rules are really bad in this respect and I think they desperately need changing. However there's a considerable body of opinion that's very antagonistic to any relaxation of this rule, but all logic says to me that this interpretation discourages rule observance and is in clear contradiction to the preamble to the rules.
The logic the PTB use is that if you aren't informed that the other party considers a rule to be broken you can't take an alternative penalty, and that there will be too many made up protests where the other person isn't informed until after the race. To my mind this is a really poor argument. If the rules were broken the rules were broken and the guilty party should be penalised, but if the guilty party wasn't given the opportunity to take an alternative penalty then they should get say a 20% place penalty, not a DSQ. As for made up protests, that's what RRS2, RRS69 are for. Edited by JimC - 11 Aug 14 at 3:44pm |
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GarethT ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 21 Apr 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 714 |
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Surely one could argue that this is not "in compliance with the recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play"?
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jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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I agree Jim and if you are busy doing something erlse essential at the time, such as recovering from a capsize (ensuring crew safety, preparing the boat to right) then shouting protest is definitely a secondary consideration. If you do not sail close enough to the other boat until after the race then your first available opportunity is once the race has finished. Most competent sailors should be aware enough of the rules to have an idea they did something wrong and should take a penalty. Using the argument that they were not informed until after the race (as it was the first opportunity) is a non starter. Interestingly enough there is no ISAF case on this matter that I can find.
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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davidyacht ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
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It could be that the protestee recognises that a Protest Committee might grasp at the opportunity to reject the protest for an easy life, or might read the rules literally and feel that it has no alternative but to reject the protest even if it sees merit in the case.
To me this is a classic case of a rule writen for Olympic competition that does not work in Corinthian competition. How do you communicate this to the rulemakers?
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jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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If I ever had a protest thrown out for that i would request it be re-opened as the protest committee have clearly erred in the duty.
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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