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Leeward Mark Port and Starboard
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Leeward Mark Port and Starboard
    Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 1:26pm
This one has caused a fair amount of bar talk, no-one upset but unclear who is right or wrong..

Boat A on starboard gybe, marginal overlap with Boat B
Boat B on port gybe

Both boats approaching leeward mark on run to be rounded to port

Boat A (potentially) in inside position

Boat B (outside) enters 3 length circle
Boat A calls starboard on Boat B while Boat A is still outside the three length circle

If Boat A maintains the overlap it is obvious that she will shortly establish mark room rights, but is Boat A entitled to call starboard in the period before she has entered the 3 length circle?

Any one have any thoughts?
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 2:04pm
In this situation Port/Starboard applies until the closest boat enters the zone at which point Rule 18 takes over and each boat then had different obligations which override port starboard.

So as soon as boat B enters the zone rule 18 applies.

The outside boat is required to give Mark-Room which is defined as below:

Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also, 
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close 
to it, and 
(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course. 
However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is 
overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room
and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.

B does have to allow room for A to gybe (rule 18.4) but A (as I understand it) is not allowed to sail out wide and do a 'tactical rounding' they must sail directly towards the mark and is then entitled to proper course at the mark.

A certainly should not have been calling starboard once B had entered the zone.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 3:59pm
Strictly speaking the way the rules are written now they don't over ride port/starboard, they modify it.

So this is my understanding, Brass correct if necessary.

Firstly the basic rules

Before either boat enters the zone A is ROW boat, and stays ROW boat until she gybes: Rule 10. Once she gybes she becomes windward boat and loses ROW (Rule 11). RRS 15 never applies because B gets ROW because f A's gybe.
However Section C may limit he actions of a ROW boat.
Rule 18 applies
So A is also entitled to mark room as soon as B reaches the zone, but at this point is still ROW boat, but cannot sail anywhere she likes because she is subject to rule 18.4, so she mustn't sail any farther from the mark than required to sail a proper course. Once A gybes she is no longer ROW boat and must sail straight to the mark.

The subtlety is in A's proper course. My interpretation of this is that if A is high of the mark and without B there would sail two or three boat lengths past before gybing then she is entitled to do so, because its a valid proper course, and B has to stay clear of the starboard boat.

Edited by JimC - 11 Aug 14 at 4:00pm
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 11:50pm
Originally posted by jeffers

In this situation Port/Starboard applies until the closest boat enters the zone at which point Rule 18 takes over and each boat then had different obligations which override port starboard.

Not quite right.  Since 2009, Right of Way rules (Port/Starboard, W/L, Ahead/Astern, and Tacking) continue to apply all the way round the mark, as well as mark-room, with a boat that breaks a right of way rule while sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled exonerated under rule 21.

So as soon as boat B enters the zone rule 18 applies.

So B, overlapped outside, on port tack, must keep clear of A, on starboard, and also give A mark-room.

The outside boat is required to give Mark-Room which is defined as below:

Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also, 
(a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close  to it, and 
(b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course. 
However, mark-room for a boat does not include room to tack unless she is  overlapped inside and to windward of the boat required to give mark-room and she would be fetching the mark after her tack.

B does have to allow room for A to gybe (rule 18.4)

Rule 18.4 is not the source of A's entitlement to room to gybe:  that comes directly from the definition of mark-room 'room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course'.

Rule 18.4 imposes a limitation on A and obliges A gybe once her proper course is to do so.

 but A (as I understand it) is not allowed to sail out wide and do a 'tactical rounding' they must sail directly towards the mark

Generally, a right of way boat with mark-room must be given room to make a 'tactical rounding' (US Appeal 20), in wide, out tight, changing course no faster than is the optimum for the boat, etc.  It is a give way boat with mark-room that can be manoeuvered against by a right of way boat to make a 'seamanlike rounding', as fast and as close as is possible in a seamanlike way.

Rule 18.4 doesn't limit A's ability to make a tactical rounding because sailing beyond the point where her proper course was to gybe would not be 'tactical'.

If A sailed wide and gybed at the point under rule 18.4 where she was obliged to, if she was then overlapped to windward of B, she would be obliged to keep clear by luffing up as far as her 'seamanlike' course 'to round the mark as necessary to sail the course', after which point, she would be sailing within the mark-room to which she was entitled, and, if she did not keep clear of B would be exonerated under rule 21 and B would fail to give her the mark-room to which she was entitled.

 and is then entitled to proper course at the mark.

'Proper course at the mark' was the 2009 rules formulation.  It has been removed and the definition of mark-room is now as you have quoted it.  She is entitled to 'room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course'.

A certainly should not have been calling starboard once B had entered the zone.

I agree that nobody should have been 'calling' things to one another.  Both should have been concentrating on sailing their boats, not having chatty conversations.  Except for a hail of 'protest' and a hail for room at an obstruction under rule 20, 'calls' or 'hails' have no effect on boat's entitlements under the rules.

In this case, if A had hailed 'Starboard' at any time while she was on starboard tack and B was on port, she would be doing absolutely nothing wrong:  she would have right of way, with no limitations on her (at least until the rule 18.4 point), and B would be required to keep clear (as well as giving mark-room).


Edited by Brass - 12 Aug 14 at 12:25am
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 14 at 12:21am
Originally posted by JimC

Strictly speaking the way the rules are written now they don't over ride port/starboard, they modify it.

So this is my understanding, Brass correct if necessary.

Firstly the basic rules

Before either boat enters the zone A is ROW boat, and stays ROW boat until she gybes: Rule 10. Once she gybes she becomes windward boat and loses ROW (Rule 11). RRS 15 never applies because B gets ROW because f A's gybe and rule 17 does not apply for the same reason.
However Section C may limit he actions of a ROW boat.
Rule 18 applies
So A is also entitled to mark room as soon as B reaches the zone, but at this point is still ROW boat, but cannot sail anywhere she likes because she is subject to rule 18.4, so she mustn't sail any farther from the mark than required to sail a proper course. Once A gybes she is no longer ROW boat

Looks fine up to here.

and must sail straight to the mark.

This seems a little awkward.  A has no obligation to sail straight to the mark.

B has an obligation to give A 'room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course' which might, be to sail straight to (or close to) the mark:  as long as B is giving A this room, A must keep clear of B, but if B protested, the obligation that A would break would be the obligation to keep clear, not any obligation to sail straight to the mark.

The subtlety is in A's proper course. My interpretation of this is that if A is high of the mark and without B there would sail two or three boat lengths past before gybing then she is entitled to do so, because its a valid proper course,

That looks right to me.  I don't think it's all that subtle.

Presumably the typical circumstance would be a strong tide against the wind.

It might also be a boat's proper course to sail around the outside of a group of boats already at the mark.

 and B has to stay clear of the starboard boat.
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Assassin View Drop Down
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Posts: 25 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Assassin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 14 at 6:08am
In general, Boat A is protected by 2 rules, 10 & 18, the double whammy, therefore Boat B needs to keep clear not just give room.
This is the ultimate overlapped leeward rounding.

Cheers.
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