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windshifts and luffing rights
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: windshifts and luffing rights
    Posted: 29 Jun 13 at 2:03pm
This thread once again illustrates that in any discussion about the rules the first essental is to establish facts. In most cases once facts have been established reaching a conclusion is relatively easy.

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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 13 at 1:03pm
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 13 at 9:42am
With you right up until the end there Brass!
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 13 at 6:56am
Originally posted by Rupert

You know, I have been sailing and using the rules all my life, but it still took several reads through that to figure out who would have been in the right or wrong depending exactly what happened when.

Given that 2 people's view of what happened will be different -  "you were past head to wind" compared to "I bore off before I was head to wind" in the protest room, with neither lying, is it any wonder that at club level all but the most basic rule breaks are dealt with with a shrug?

And that is before you have to worry about how you got into the position in the 1st place.
 
The discussion of this scenario was four or five times as long as it might have been because:
  • facts not given about:
    • whether one or both boats passed head to wind
    • what tack boats were on
    • whether either boat actually did not keep clear
  • red-herrings
    • rule 17 (as it turned out);
    • 'can't luff past head to wind'
  • additional scenario:  other boat did not pass head to wind and bore away and made contact.

This led to the discussion extending over several 'what-if' situations, instead of a simple 'who broke what rule' analysis.

The 'two persons' different views' problem, while it underlies probably most protests, only really comes to light in the protest room, or the bar afterwards:  on the water, each sailor 'calls it as he or she sees it', so in their mind, they 'know' the facts (or else completely overlook some relevant fact), and apply the limited number of rules they think are in play.
 
I thought working through the rule 17 issue was interesting:  bear in mind the non-breach of rule 17 was caused by the wind-shift moving the boats' proper course around:  it's a fairly restricted scenario.
 
Oh and by the way Go the Wallabies.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Reuben T

thanks Brass that makes sense


Originally posted by Rupert

You know, I have been sailing and using the rules all my life, but it still took several reads through that to figure out who would have been in the right or wrong depending exactly what happened when.

Given that 2 people's view of what happened will be different -  "you were past head to wind" compared to "I bore off before I was head to wind" in the protest room, with neither lying, is it any wonder that at club level all but the most basic rule breaks are dealt with with a shrug?

And that is before you have to worry about how you got into the position in the 1st place.

Thats what makes sailing beautifully complex at times


Don't get me wrong Reuben - I love the complexity of sailing, and am nearly as happy debating rule oddities as I am picking the right shift, but I can see that it is somewhat offputting to many people.
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Reuben T View Drop Down
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Posts: 74 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Reuben T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 9:57am
thanks Brass that makes sense


Originally posted by Rupert

You know, I have been sailing and using the rules all my life, but it still took several reads through that to figure out who would have been in the right or wrong depending exactly what happened when.

Given that 2 people's view of what happened will be different -  "you were past head to wind" compared to "I bore off before I was head to wind" in the protest room, with neither lying, is it any wonder that at club level all but the most basic rule breaks are dealt with with a shrug?

And that is before you have to worry about how you got into the position in the 1st place.

Thats what makes sailing beautifully complex at times
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 9:21am
You know, I have been sailing and using the rules all my life, but it still took several reads through that to figure out who would have been in the right or wrong depending exactly what happened when.

Given that 2 people's view of what happened will be different -  "you were past head to wind" compared to "I bore off before I was head to wind" in the protest room, with neither lying, is it any wonder that at club level all but the most basic rule breaks are dealt with with a shrug?

And that is before you have to worry about how you got into the position in the 1st place.


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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 12:25am
Originally posted by Reuben T

 I was almost on the lay-line to a windward mark with another boat just to windward of me, I was pinching to make the mark, forcing the other boat to pinch in order to keep clear. A sudden wind-shift then meant that we were past head to wind. Because I was forcing him above the corse he would have taken had I not been there (and therefore was the reason he became effectively luffed past head to wind) should I have done turns? 

Also, if he had borne away faster when the wind-shift occurred in order not to almost tack and had made contact, would either of us had to do turns for that?
I'll have another crack at this and try to answer your specific questions.
 
First, I assume that you are actually looking at a copy of the rules?  If not, here they are:
 
 
Rule 17 On the Same Tack;  Proper Course applies if  you became overlapped on the same tack within two of your hull lengths, and from clear astern of the other boat.  If it applies it requires that you shall not sail above your proper course.
 
I discussed the situation when rule 17 did NOT apply in previous posts.
 
Let's suppose that rule 17 DID apply, and there you were, pinching hard to fetch the mark.
 
The wind then shifted suddenly so that you could no longer fetch the mark on the tack you were on.
 
I'm quite happy that your new proper course is to tack and that up until you pass head to wind you are not sailing above your proper course.
 
The instant that you pass head to wind, you are no longer 'on the same tack' as you were when rule 17 began to apply and rule 17 no longer applies, and you no longer have any proper course limitation.
 
So if the wind shifts as you described, you never break rule 17, and the rule 16/13 analysis I posted before applies.
 
Bottom line is, in the original situation as you described, on analysis, it is irrelevant whether rule 17 appleis or not.
 
You then asked 'if he had borne away faster when the wind-shift occurred in order not to almost tack and had made contact' would either of us have broken a rule?
 
If W had borne away faster and not passed head to wind, and made contact:
If you also had managed to bear away and not pass head to wind, rule 11 (Windward/Leeward) continues to apply, W has not kept clear of you and W has broken rule 11, and possibly rule 14 (avoiding contact).
 
IF, on the other hand, you had not managed to bear away and had passed head to wind, rule 13 applies, you were the boat that passed head to wind, and were required to keep clear of W, HOWEVER, in this case
W is also subject to rules 15 (because she acquired right of way other than because of your actions) and 16 (as a right of way boat changing course) and must initially give you room to keep clear and continue to give you room to keep clear while ever she is changing coruse.
 
There was contact, therefore you were not given room to keep clear.
  • you did not keep clear therefore you broke rule 13
  • W did not give you room to keep clear therefore W broke either or both of rules 15 and 16.
  • W, by breaking rule 15/16 compelled you to break rule 13:  you shall be exonerated for breaking rule 13 in accordance with rule 64.1 Penalties and Exoneration.
  • W did not give you room to keep clear therefore it was not reasonably possible for you to avoid contact and you did not break rule 14.
  • A protest committee may conclude that it was reasonably possible for W to have avoided contact and that W broke rule 14, but if there was no damage or injury, would exonerate W for breaking rule 14 in accordance with rule 14( b ).

 

 
 
 


Edited by Brass - 28 Jun 13 at 1:41am
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andymck View Drop Down
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 10:10pm
I totally agree with Brass.
Rule 17 prevents you from going above close hauled until it cannot be argued that going higher is your proper course. This would be to shoot the mark if you are fetching it, or past the lay line if you need to tack. Before that you are restricted. In each case you have to give windward boat opportunity to keep clear.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 10:14am
Rules usually depend on the positions and points of sailing of boats, not why or how they got there.
 
It doesn't matter whether the wind shifts to put you past head to wind or you steered there in a steady wind:  when you pass head to wind rule 13 applies.
 
If you both started out on starboard tack, with you to leeward, and both came up and pass head to wind, you would be on the other boat's port side and would be required to keep clear.
 
If you had started out on port tack, with you to leeward, and both came up and passed head to wind, then you would be 'on the right and in the right' and the other boat would be required to keep clear.
 
Question then is, did the give way boat fail to keep clear, that is, did the right of way boat need to change course to avoid the other boat?
 
Whether rule 17 is in effect is also relevant.
 
Did you originally become overlapped within two of your hull lengths, and from clear astern of the other boat?
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