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Tacking at windward mark to starboard

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Hitcher View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hitcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tacking at windward mark to starboard
    Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 9:49pm
So this came up the other day when i was teamracing.
Windward mark to be left to starboard.

Boat A is on PORT on the layline, and slows as it reaches the 2boatlength zone clear ahead of Boat B who is directly behind, also on PORT on the layline.
Boat B then bears away and sails below Boat A and becomes overlapped to leeward.
Boat B then tacks on to starboard, and is now on a collision course with Boat A.
Boat A then accelerates to keep clear and Boat B tacks back on to port and is now inside Boat A.
Boat B asks for room. Boat A was probably slightly above the layline by this point, but definitely had to head up to avoid Boat B. It was not definite whether or not they Boat A went above close-hauled.

Please could you help me understand which rules apply at which points and if any rules may have been broken?
Thanks
Edit:
Sorry, you were both right. The boats were originally on port. I drew it all out and then just used the wrong words!


Edited by Hitcher - 17 Jun 13 at 11:11pm
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Ian29937 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian29937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 10:52pm
Are you sure you've got your port and starboards correct? In the first line Boat B is on starboard on the layline and then on line three tacks onto starboard?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 13 at 11:05pm
The only way I can work this out is if they were both originally on port?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 13 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Hitcher

So this came up the other day when i was teamracing.
Windward mark to be left to starboard.

  1. Boat A is on PORT on the layline, and slows as it reaches the 2boatlength zone clear ahead of .  Boat B who is directly behind, also on PORT on the layline.
  2. Boat B then bears away and sails below Boat A and becomes overlapped to leeward.
  3. Boat B then tacks on to starboard, and is now on a collision course with Boat A.
  4. Boat A then accelerates to keep clear and Boat B tacks back on to port and is now inside Boat A.
  5. Boat B asks for room. Boat A was probably slightly above the layline by this point, but definitely had to head up to avoid Boat B. It was not definite whether or not they Boat A went above close-hauled.

Please could you help me understand which rules apply at which points and if any rules may have been broken?
Thanks
Edit:
Sorry, you were both right. The boats were originally on port. I drew it all out and then just used the wrong words!

And the boats fitted all this in within the two hull lengths zone?

Wow.

OK, here goes.

@ Position 1

A is right of way boat (rule 12) entitled to mark-room (rule 18.2( b )).

B is keeping clear and giving mark-room.

@ Position 2

B is right of way boat (rule 11), limited by rule 15 (must initially give A room to keep clear).

A is still entitled to mark-room (rule 18.2( b )), sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled and thus entitled to exoneration under rule 21 if she does not keep clear.

@ Position 3

When B, in tacking, passed head to wind, rule 18 ceased to apply (rule 18.1( a ) or ( b )), and A's entitlement to mark-room ceased.

B, having been the give way boat until she reached her close hauled course (rule 13) is now the right of way boat (rule 10), limited by rule 15.

So the only rules applying are rules 10 and 15.

@ Position 4

A keeps clear.

When, in tacking B passed head to wind,

·         she became the give way boat (rule 13), and

·         rule 18 again began to apply, and

·         because B passes head to wind in the zone, its rule 18.3.

When B reaches her close hauled course inside A:

·         she becomes the right of way boat (rule 11),

·         bound by rule 18.3( a ) to not cause A to sail above close hauled.

@ Position 5

Whatever B 'asks' for, she has no entitlement to room of any kind.  With rule 18.3 on, rule 18.2 does not apply (rule 18.3 stem) and B, becoming inside boat does not get an entitlement to mark-room under rule 18.2( a ).

In a rule 18.3 situation, if the fetching boat is above the layline, by any significant amount, it's going to be unlikely (although not impossible) that she will be caused to sail above close hauled in breach of rule 18.3( a ), even though she may need to change course to windward.  The test for rule 18.3( a ), first bit, is that she is caused to sail above close hauled, not just to 'head up'.

If it wasn't definite whether or not A sailed above close hauled, at the last point of certainty, she was not sailing above close hauled, so she should be taken to be not sailing above close hauled.

A is keeping clear, not sailing above close hauled.

B is right of way boat, not entitled to mark-room, not breaking rule 18.3.

No rules broken.



Edited by Brass - 18 Jun 13 at 12:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 13 at 12:45am
assuming that b, when she becomes overlapped to leeward does not break rule 17, which becomes a mine field near the windward mark once lay lines have been crossed.

Brass, what turns off 18.2b? 
18.2.c (2) suggests that only the actions of the boat entitled to mark room by tacking turn it off again, not the actions of the boat required to give it, that bit reads thereafter. So not sure we go from 18.2b back to 18.1a?


18.3 would only seem to be intended when there was no prior obligation?

I think there would be a struggle to pull that manoeuvre off with in 2 boat lengths.

I think we need to see a diagram, and may actually be worth a question to the powers that be.


Andy





Edited by andymck - 18 Jun 13 at 12:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 13 at 1:40am
Originally posted by andymck

assuming that b, when she becomes overlapped to leeward does not break rule 17, which becomes a mine field near the windward mark once lay lines have been crossed.
 
I think there would be a struggle to pull that manoeuvre off with in 2 boat lengths.
Agree:  it's going to be an action packed little zone.
 
Maybe with a honking downwind tide, so everything happens in super slo mo? 
Originally posted by andymck

Brass, what turns off 18.2b? 
18.2.c (2) suggests that only the actions of the boat entitled to mark room by tacking turn it off again, not the actions of the boat required to give it, that bit reads thereafter. So not sure we go from 18.2b back to 18.1a?
 
As I referenced in my post above Rule 18.1 ( a ) or ( b ) switch off rule 18 in its entirity.
 
When either of two boats, initially on the same tack passes head to wind, so that boats are on opposite tacks, either on a beat to windward (rule 18.1( a ), or where the proper course of one but not both is to tack (rule 18.1( b )), rule 18 does not apply.
 
Hence the maxim:  'At a windward mark on opposite tacks, take the mark away'.
 
Originally posted by andymck

18.3 would only seem to be intended when there was no prior obligation?
 
Neither I nor anybody else should be bothering about what we might think a rule was 'intended' to do.
 
The best we can do is just apply the rules as they are written.
 
Originally posted by andymck

I think we need to see a diagram, and may actually be worth a question to the powers that be.
I don't see what this demand for diagrams is.
 
The OP here gives ample detail to enable us to diagram the situation for ourselves.
 
If we are to be on protest committees we need to develop our skills of visualisation.
 
First thing I do when given a scenario like this is grab the pencil and paper and start diagramming.  Otherwise you can use toys, or, if technologically inclined TSS or BoatScenario.
 
Can't see any issues that would warrant a Call or Case here.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 13 at 8:52am
The reason we would need to is what turns off 18.2b/c
It suggests once the obligation to give mark room has occurred, on only the actions of the boat entitled to mark room turn it off.
Rule 18.1 tells us when rule 18 becomes applicable, not when it turns off.

I am surprised that you feel that when there is ambiguity, and disagreement that a question is not worth asking. This situation is not covered in the call book. We certainly need to know if we revert to 18.1 or if 18.2b/c is still in force. Certainly we were always encouraged to ask these questions, and there is now a call in the book from from a similar question which we raised back in the nineties which led to a disagreement between umpires.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 13 at 9:15am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by andymck

assuming that b, when she becomes overlapped to leeward does not break rule 17, which becomes a mine field near the windward mark once lay lines have been crossed.
 
I think there would be a struggle to pull that manoeuvre off with in 2 boat lengths.

Agree:  it's going to be an action packed little zone.
 
Maybe with a honking downwind tide, so everything happens in super slo mo? 


But also achievable in most craft once you start slowing - high tariff stuff from B, but worth a go.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 13 at 9:38am
I am surprised that B had room to duck below A and tack (and complete the tack and give A room to keep clear) all without leaving the zone, but if this was in Fireflies, then they do turn well! And the amount of room needed would be rather less than expected in a fleet race, I imagine.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 13 at 10:03am
Brass has the rules spot on, what I dont understand is why B tacked back onto port. I would have stayed on starboard and forced A to tack away before tacking to round the mark, gives yourself much more space on the reach.


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Edited by Quagers - 18 Jun 13 at 10:03am
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