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Pre-big kite 505 PY |
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craiggo 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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 Topic: Pre-big kite 505 PYPosted: 01 Apr 13 at 7:15pm |
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Anyone know the answer? Jim?
We have a 505 at our club and I dont think its fair to apply the big kite PY to them as they are still sailing around with the old rig. Cheers Paul |
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Atrocity
Groupie 
Joined: 23 Jan 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 42 |
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Posted: 01 Apr 13 at 7:48pm |
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There is no difference in PY, in fact on most club courses the small kite is preferable to the big kite as it is much more versatile. The Big kite is devastating on large W/L courses but hard to handle on anything other than the deepest of reaches.
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RS400atC
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Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Posted: 01 Apr 13 at 7:54pm |
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Before the rule change in 505's as I understand it, you could have a very big kite, but the halyard was only so far up the mast.
Now, even smaller kites benefit from the higher head. IIRC the 505 used to be quite similar to a Laser 4000? |
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craiggo
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Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 01 Apr 13 at 8:14pm |
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I've been doing a bit of digging on the matter. The boat in question is reasonably old being an early 7000 boat and is equipped with Dacron sails and small kite and original low aspect foils.
The 505 forum in 2011 suggested splitting the fleet based on sail number and had 7000-7999 as 932, plus they recommended +15 for the small kite. I guess that the +15 was to recover the penalty of small kite on the W/L courses set at 5'oh' events. I'm just trying to find a sensible number to sail them off. |
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 01 Apr 13 at 10:12pm |
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The 505 PY hasn't changed since 1999. Between 1989 and 1999 it steadily dropped from 915 to 909, before that it had been the equiv of 915 since the early 70s. Pre epoxy/carbon/kevlar FibveOhs were notorious for clapping out very quickly, its really up to you whether you want to make an allowance for that, and if so how many other classes you'd make allowances for...
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craiggo
Really should get out more
Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 01 Apr 13 at 10:51pm |
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Thanks for that Jim. Other fleets like the ff have provided different pys for current, silver and classic, so really wanted to find out what the 5 'o' had done given the development in the class. We only have the one 5'o' in the club and I don't have enough PYS data to give me a sensible suggestion so a sensible start point is all in really after. If the current PY is considered suitable then fine.
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Dougaldog
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 05 Nov 10 Location: hamble Online Status: Offline Posts: 356 |
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Posted: 02 Apr 13 at 9:33am |
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Jim (and Craiggo for info)
I think you're a bit off with your dates there.
Within the 505 fleet, the big change was deemed to be when boats had numbers greater than 8400, for this was when there was the big change in hull shape (don't you just love these one designs). The difference was probably most noticeable when mariginal planing but there were lots of upsides to the 'new' hull form and not that many downsides - that is certainly how it seems.
As soon as it became clear just how the later boats were performing, the writing was on the wall for the 'older' boats. Timeline wise you're looking at 1991/92 - a split that is now recognised by the UK 505 Class.
From the detailed work that I've done Craiggo, I'd say that the example set by the Merlins, who happily give a PY advantage to users of the 'old' kite, I'd say that you're doing the right thing. It sounds a big change but if you're going to allow for the overall change in the boat post 92 (assuming that the boat is pre 91) and the smaller kite then you'll probably have to be 'bolder' with your PY allowance.
I've still got Phil Morrison's old 505, a kevlar 'special' that is still down to weight and superstiff but you'd never say that this would be competitive today, not withstanding the big kite!
Dougal
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Dougal H
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JimC
Really should get out more
Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 02 Apr 13 at 10:19am |
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Dougal, that's what the PY was historically.
Before 1995 we were on the intermediate numbers and the minimum change was about 9 points in current money. Somewhere between 1989 and 1995 (I don't have every year's numbers) it dropped by 1 point from 97 to 96 (915 to 906 in modern equivalents), in 1998 from 906 to 903, and in 1999 to 902 where its remained. Don't forget that a change that gets your bow out into clear air first off a start line of 90 very similar boats may have a big impact on championship race places, yet not make a huge difference to actual round the track speed against the clock. |
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Posted: 02 Apr 13 at 10:38am |
The MROA don't have the authority to do this. Sure they can give a time allowance to older boats in MROA organised racing, but they can't declare a new PY to be used in club organised handicap racing. |
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Medway Maniac
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Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788 |
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Posted: 02 Apr 13 at 11:29am |
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What you are proposing to do is wholly reasonable.
You are, as I've said before on the forum however, taking the lid off Pandora's box as someone implied above. We did a similar thing with our Merlins and an N12, which then won quite a bit; it did not make for happy bunnies in the club (I'd forgotten about this, which took place in the wake of the V3k whinging). My advice would be not actively to advertise what you've done in any way (beyond an official notice, obviously). That way most people won't even notice and will stay happy; I think our problem was partly that we went out of our way to justify and discuss the matter unnecessarily. [p.s. there is an up-side to the floating local-PY as we discovered after a shocking (if enjoyable) performance on Sunday: we could actually take delight in the fact that our next-to-be-calculated PN had been nudged upwards!]
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