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Topside Flare in Dinghy Hull Design

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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Topside Flare in Dinghy Hull Design
    Posted: 28 Mar 13 at 1:35pm
505's have it, Merlins, 400's and 12's have it in abundance, but most of our hard-chine classes - GP14; Hornet, Laser 2000 do not, nor do round bilge boats like Kestrels and Albacores, boats produced by people who were considered 'to know' in their day.

At first sight topside flare looks like a free lunch - more righting moment for little extra material/weight.

Done the 505 way it provides mostly for more crew leverage and is somewhat like having racks, but done the 400/N12/Merlin way without hollows, it provides a very useful emergency reserve of form stability in what are otherwise quite tippy, narrow waterline beam designs.  

When I've crewed Merlins, that extra form stability has often been the only thing between us and a dip on a rolly run, but it has enabled a nice narrow waterline which provided good speed the rest of the time. Then again, I've watched novices in 400's resting very heavily on the topside flare to save them from disaster, but being rewarded with good speed when they kept it upright - best of all worlds.

So why did designers not put more flare into the topsides of most of the designs we sail. What is against it?
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 13 at 1:48pm
Hollow and flare aren't the same thing. The N12 or Merlin technically don't have hollows as it is not allowed by the rules, apart from the sheer / gunwhale extending a certain amount within the overall beam measurement.
N12s and merlins are what, 6' and 8' wide, and are under 3' waterline beam.
Any development class will seek to maximise beam on deck, and minimise waterline beam within the rise of floor rule in the class.
N12s and Merlins would def have hollow if it were allowed - less penalty when heeled / rolling, at the expense of more reserve stability.

Most dinghies have a waterline beam between 0.9m and 1.2m, roughly speaking - less and its too tippy, more and its too slow. Many aren't that much wider on deck - 1.4 to 1.6ish -  (less of a faff for crew to get side to side), hence there isn't a lot of flare or hollow necessary.

Compound curves are trickier to make in anything apart from rotomould.
GP and Hornet are developable panel shapes so can't do hollow in any case
You can project the gunwhale off the side of the boat, but in a wooden craft this will require some support structure, or in grp it is just a bit more faff too - look under an RS400s gunwhales.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 13 at 2:01pm
Dan........... catch me next time at the club and I've a little more background on this that may interest you.
 
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 13 at 3:21pm
My memory of sailing old 505's in silly wind and rough water suggests that the flare can help lift the bow as waves hit it. It's not just a sitting-out shelf on the 505. Where a fireball will do a passable imitation of a submarine in Solent wind-over-tide, a 505 will seem to 'ride on its flares'.
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 13 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman


N12s and Merlins would def have hollow if it were allowed - less penalty when heeled / rolling, at the expense of more reserve stability.

Most dinghies have a waterline beam between 0.9m and 1.2m, roughly speaking - less and its too tippy, more and its too slow. Many aren't that much wider on deck - 1.4 to 1.6ish -  (less of a faff for crew to get side to side), hence there isn't a lot of flare or hollow necessary.

Ah, good. A sensible answer before GRF pitches in.

I am sure N12 & Merlins would have hollow if permitted because, as you say it would make them a bit quicker in some circs, but it would make them much trickier to sail - as i said, it was only the flare with lack of hollow that saved us on the occasions I've crewed a Merlin.  So maybe the top boats in those classes would go a bit (but essentially) quicker but lose mass appeal (as from what I observed the Moths did when they went very narrow on the waterline in the '70's). Flare without hollow brings speed when upright, and a stabiliser when you get it wrong  - nice, in my view.

Flare without hollow is easily do-able with chines surely? Just the sides look less like straight planks in the plans. And these days surely you can produce your mould plug using a computer-controlled cutter on a foam block, so you can have any shape you like. The gain in sail-carrying power (= faster boat, earlier planing, more fun) is undeniable, however.

Edit: thinking further, I wonder if those designers of old were severely limited by concerns of how to make best use of a couple of sheets of plywood.  The shape of a topside panel with lots of flare would leave a lot of waste wood around it...


Edited by Medway Maniac - 28 Mar 13 at 5:40pm
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tgruitt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 13 at 8:58am
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

Hollow and flare aren't the same thing. The N12 or Merlin technically don't have hollows as it is not allowed by the rules, apart from the sheer / gunwhale extending a certain amount within the overall beam measurement.
N12s and merlins are what, 6' and 8' wide, and are under 3' waterline beam.
Any development class will seek to maximise beam on deck, and minimise waterline beam within the rise of floor rule in the class.
N12s and Merlins would def have hollow if it were allowed - less penalty when heeled / rolling, at the expense of more reserve stability.

Most dinghies have a waterline beam between 0.9m and 1.2m, roughly speaking - less and its too tippy, more and its too slow. Many aren't that much wider on deck - 1.4 to 1.6ish -  (less of a faff for crew to get side to side), hence there isn't a lot of flare or hollow necessary.

Compound curves are trickier to make in anything apart from rotomould.
GP and Hornet are developable panel shapes so can't do hollow in any case
You can project the gunwhale off the side of the boat, but in a wooden craft this will require some support structure, or in grp it is just a bit more faff too - look under an RS400s gunwhales.



Hi Dan, can you clarify 'hollow' for me please? Does an RS300 have hollow topsides?
Needs to sail more...
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 13 at 9:07am
I suppose he means that the sides are would be concave for hollow and convex for the other. The RS300 sides are straight so not sure that its either
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Steve411 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 13 at 10:43am
RS Games - RS300 nationals - photo © Mike Rice / www.fotoboat.com
As you can see, there is some hollow in the 300. (Pic by Mike Rice of Fotoboat from Y&Y photo gallery).
Steve B
RS300 411

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 13 at 11:01am
Of course you can just have a reverse chine...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 13 at 11:14am
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