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Ramblings on Dinghy Development

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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 2:24pm

Egged on by one of my answers to the advertising thread and my view of GRF’s thinking, I thought I would share some ramblings on what we might need to solve if we believe performance is important (say for the 18-35 year olds) and we are to truly innovate dinghy sailing in clubs. That last bit is an important distinction as that is where I think our biggest challenge lies as a sport. If you want class circuit sailing I think that good solutions already exist.

I've probably only raced dinghies for 5 years in total (although interspersed with many years of windsurfing and lead mine sailing), so in terms of experience, knowledge, expertise I would put myself a long way back in the queue of people qualified to comment on dinghy design, but what the hell, here goes.

 

Like many I succumbed to the mid 90's promise of asymmetric sailing - accessible, fast and cheapish sailing. It kind of worked if you were into circuits, but for club sailing it wasn't so rewarding. When you tired of class circuits you tended to tire of asymmetrics. We've had lots of specific thoughts for that, which I think boil down to one thing - boat polars. Fast asymmetrics are very sensitive to wind angle, particularly downwind where you have a very narrow band where the boat really works. 10 degrees off the ideal and you lose half your boat speed. What I notice about boats that work in club sailing, which tend to be the old classes, is that they are much more even in speed across the wind angles. This works because the reality is that club courses can be all sorts of angles and even if you lay specific shaped courses a wind shift of 20 degrees can change the nature of the course completely. If you sail a boat with a spikey polar this is what gets you in trouble as a course rarely meets the precise angles that your boat works well in.

 

This only really occurred to me when I considered my own current stead, the Phantom. If you look at the specification numbers I don’t think a Phantom is anywhere near as fast as it actually rates. The reason I think it rates quite fast is because it has a very even polar. This is also why I think it actually makes a good handicap club racer, because it works on pretty much any course.

 

Contrast this with nearly all recently introduced asymmetrics. Let’s use the latest design singlehander I know of, the RS100. It gives you bucket loads of performance (I’m sure the top speed of an RS100 must be considerably faster than a Phantom), but it’s a very spiky performance across the wind angles and that is what hinders its club racing potential. It's not just the basic performance either, if the performance is not accessible you also have the on-off effect on boat speed.

 

So for the next generation of performance dinghies we need to solve how to go fast across all wind angles, not just the top speed in a very narrow set of angles. So what innovation do you think has occurred to create a step-change in upwind sailing or DDW? What would you do to even out the polars and make boats work better in club sailing?

More importantly what would we ask for GRF to explore when he gets the time/money for V3?



Edited by rb_stretch - 11 Feb 13 at 2:26pm
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

So for the next generation of performance dinghies we need to solve how to go fast across all wind angles, not just the top speed in a very narrow set of angles.

They are here already... International Moths are foiling in a wider wind range now and carrying a lot more weight than they used to 10 years ago.  

Give it a few more years and I reckon there'll be Moth set-ups that'll easily fly a 95kg bloke in most wind we'd bother sailing in.... then all you need is a canoe or paddleboard for when it's really, really light n' sh*te.


Edited by pondmonkey - 11 Feb 13 at 2:34pm
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Kev M View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kev M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 2:37pm

I'm way less experienced than you so this is going to be a really bad suggestion but in for a penny.......

If assymetrics have such a seemingly narrow working window why not make symmetrical kites easier to use?  How about twin pole system for a single hander with poles that launch and retract with a pull of a rope or a rope for each pole.  I've seen someone single hand a 505 in light winds, so why not scale it all down for a broader wind range and stick it on a single hander?

It goes against grumph's idea that dinghy sailing needs to get easier not harder but I personally don't like sports or hobbies that are easy to master.  Where's the challenge in that.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 2:39pm
The sport doesn't need a "next generation of performance dinghies". If the speed of the current sailing dinghies doesn't satisfy you then take up power-boating.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by SoggyBadger

The sport doesn't need a "next generation of performance dinghies". If the speed of the current sailing dinghies doesn't satisfy you then take up power-boating.

 
You see I'm happy with the sailing in old classes, but clearly lots people aren't for whatever reason.
 
If we take point that sailing needs to be accessible, exciting and cheap for today's yoof to stay engaged, re-engage in club sailing, have we actually done anything about it in the right areas? Hence my thought about even performance rather than one-trick ponies...more performance, less speed possibly?
 
Moth doesn't count cause it ain't accessible enough for club sailing.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by Kev M

I'm way less experienced than you so this is going to be a really bad suggestion but in for a penny.......

If assymetrics have such a seemingly narrow working window why not make symmetrical kites easier to use?  How about twin pole system for a single hander with poles that launch and retract with a pull of a rope or a rope for each pole.  I've seen someone single hand a 505 in light winds, so why not scale it all down for a broader wind range and stick it on a single hander?

It goes against grumph's idea that dinghy sailing needs to get easier not harder but I personally don't like sports or hobbies that are easy to master.  Where's the challenge in that.


I thought about that the other day, maybe convert a Miracle to dual pole with lazy sheets and singlehand it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

 
 
Moth doesn't count cause it ain't accessible enough for club sailing.
 
 

why not?  Sure they're not suitable for small and restricted water, but then neither are moderate performance boats like the RS100 or even the RS Vareo, which needs a bit of space to stretch its legs.

Are we actually deluded enough to think 'yoof' will hang around sailing clubs and go dinghy sailing if the boats are keweller and faster?  I doubt many could afford it even if they were.  The issues are socio-economic, not hardware related.  The risk of bringing new classes out is that is alienates and fractionates the one active demographic with cash to actually spend on (new) boats.  And the cost of re-entry to the sport goes up... most MAMILS don't buy a £5k roadie for their first bike.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Kev M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 2:54pm

I was thinking about doing the same thing to a Mirror so that it will be really easy to sail with my daughter and give her more to do than just pull on a jib sheet but still keep it as simple as possible.

I should probably wait for her to start walking and swimming first though Big smile

How did you attach the camera to the top of you mast in your profile pic BTW?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 2:55pm
I don't know that the asymmetric boats have such lumpy polars because they have asymmetric kites. They have the lumpy polars simply because they are so fast. Exactly the same narrow windows of peak performance developed towards the end of pole kites. In practice by the end of pole kites we were already learning to sail hot angles all the time anyway in some breeze.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 13 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by Kev M


How did you attach the camera to the top of you mast in your profile pic BTW?



... and yes, it was also a daughter based thought pattern for the miracle conversion too.


Edited by pondmonkey - 11 Feb 13 at 3:10pm
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