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Rupert View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Rupert


Originally posted by JimC

Speaking completely personally.
A purist point of view would be that without observed performance it's absurd to issue corrected times. So for classes where a club has no satisfactory handicap perhaps the purist would say the best thing is to only publish elapsed times for those boats, and no corrected times or placings.

But I want a number NOW. And if the number doesn't mean I beat the Streakers, who are all sailed by numpties for whom I have no respect, then the number is WRONG, and I want a better one NOW.


Says the man in the biggest bandit of them all


Which one of mine is the biggest bandit? Interested to see if your thoughts on that match mine?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:50pm
Take your pic, 1225? Who sails anything with that large a handicap? All you have to do is hang around the start area then drift round behind whoever is out there.

Or have a couple of sails and a generous light wind rocker that tacks really well on 1168, hell you might even take out a Miracle now and again wearing a blindfold.

And if it's windy hey climb into that 1332 and sail it backwards you'd still win.

Edited by iGRF - 19 Sep 14 at 12:52pm
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:52pm
Them all be bandits... 

(if you bought the updated version of them)

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:53pm
Allegations that the RYA & PYAG flout the government smoking ban are completely baseless.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:56pm
Hell, who do I sue because the handicap of my phantom has dropped from 1053 to 1002 (or whatever it is) and now for some reason no one wants them anymore?

You cannot win with this system as has already been said, set it too low, people moan, set it to high, its a bandit. There are too many variables in sailing to be able to accurately guess (and I mean guess) about the py of a brand new boat. 

The only sensible thing I have heard about the py of the D-zero is at the fom when it was still called the Punk. Dan told me that on the py that he was sailing it off of it he was getting comparable corrected times to Andy Couch in his phantom who is equally good at sailing, so perhaps the most accurate trial of the boats potential.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Take your pic, 1225? Who sails anything with that large a handicap? All you have to do is hang around the start area then drift round behind whoever is out there.

Or have a couple of sails and a generous light wind rocker that tacks really well on 1168, hell you might even take out a Miracle now and again wearing a blindfold.

And if it's windy hey climb into that 1332 and sail it backwards you'd still win.


Can't recall the Minisail doing very well in no wind at the FOM?

Yup, Firefly on a small lake, great, it suits it. Mind, the other one on the lake doesn't do so well, so maybe ability to sail on a small puddle counts too?
On the sea? Well, a boat that planes earlier and faster, has more rag, has trapezes maybe, is less rockered, may do rather better.

Topper, not raced it yet off its current handicap, if it is 1332. Sounds good, must give it a go.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Slooow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slooow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 1:11pm
You should all buy D-One's and stop d1cking around
 
It's a proper bandit................
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by 2547

Originally posted by Thunder Road

Originally posted by 2547

Originally posted by Bas Edmonds

 
The numbers published by the RYA for each class are offered to the clubs to be able run mixed class racing - 

So what should clubs do with new classes which have no returns to support a figure?

The RYA should issue a temp. figure and adjust later as returns build, just like they have always done. that's why we pay our RYA membership.

Agreed ... so what are the RYA temp figures?

The RYA PY Guidance notes covers this guys. Clubs should allocate a Trial Number (note CLUBS not the RYA, Designer or Manufacturer).

This is what most clubs have done. When I ordered my Zero I approached the sailing committee, said this is what I have bought and I want to race. They asked me to suggest a PY. I advised that as it is a similar boat to a Rooster 8.1 (which IMO is artificially fast on the PY as it never really gets raced in a breeze) that we should start there and see what happens.

So I am using 1044 until the next list is issued. If there is no EN then the sailing committee will review the number based on results but will also use a skill factor to ensure that it is not a Persoanl Handicap for me.

So there is a mechanism in place, CLUBS just need to use it as designed.

My view is that Bas and the rest of the PYAG do a great job with the limited data they have. Data input does seem to be improving but the list of clubs that send returns is still quite small given the large number of sailing clubs in the country......


Edited by jeffers - 19 Sep 14 at 1:16pm
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 1:17pm
We volunteered on several occasions to be excluded from any potential 'chocolates' at larger open handicap events in the first couple of years with ICON. 

Defuses the accusations of those with any axe to grind, allows everyone to race together and helps establish a more reliable number.  Forget about club return in the first year of so - far too many 'other' variables at play plus sample size limitations.  What everyone wants to know is POTENTIAL OF THE BOAT ... and far far less about the cobbled 'average' performance of any class with minute sample sizes ... but we do want them to be involved..

Yes we know it is not straightforward and would require a carefuly considered overhaul of handicapping....  But in a world where handicap racing is now so much more important perhaps it is time for the RYA to question their own orthadoxy on this one. 

We, the people, want numbers that reflect the POTENTIAL of boats much more directly.   We the people pay RYA affiliation fees and the system as currently run appears to be a 'take it or leave it' one.  Smell the coffee guys ..... most major handicpa events ALREADY  use a heavily modified version of 'the' system because 'regular' PNs do not really measure POTENTIAL - now why on earth would anyone bother to go to all the trouble of developing their own adjustments on such a scale ?  Heck this year it was even used by some sailing weeks.

For new classes is a total nightmare - we the owners and producers really do not want to get involved despite what is all too casually thrown around occasionally in conversation.  We get damned if the 'do' and of course damned if the 'don't' ...

Surely a measure of 'assessment' must be involved for any class with less than say 250 recorded races each year ?  especially applicable for new classes.    'Eliminate' any from a purely 'numbers' approach with less than 'n' races each and augment with assessment would seem reasonable. 

In the meantime and to help any process - why does'nt everyone 'chill' and just go race whatever you like ... if 'the' system does not / cannot change  I can see the more reactive and different approach of the GL one being developed further and becoming in time the main handicap approach.  I'd pay ... perhaps other CA's and producers would as well. 

Mike L.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 1:27pm
CAs paying for handicaps... can't see any problems with that, than? Can you pay a bit extra and get a nicer one?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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