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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:33am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

but it will have historical returns


Published Py numbers are strictly based on recent data. Way over a hundred classes have dropped off the Py list since the 50s and doubtless more will in the future. Portsmouth Yardstick is an observed performance system, and numbers are only published for classes where there's enough recent data to justify publishing one. I suspect I'd be correct in suggesting that the PYAG folk have more sense than to get in the fools game of guessing what handicaps might be for new classes.

Edited by JimC - 19 Sep 14 at 11:53am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:33am
Can i just add, nobody in this day and age buys or even enquires about a racing dinghy without asking what its handicap is, don't be naive.

Have the balls to actually state what the boat is and let the consumer decide if he thinks he or she is capable of sailing it to that target. Then don't allow the target to be changed just because a lot of them end up in 'MuddyPond in the wold' if they want to change it for their location then fine but don't force their choice on the rest of us.

Edited by iGRF - 19 Sep 14 at 11:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Punky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:48am
Originally posted by JimC

  The PYAG folk have more sense than to get in the fools game of guessing what handicaps might be for new classes.
 
So who should make that guess estimate in your view? 
 
The manufacturer (who will be perceived as having no particular incentive to suggest an accurate one) or race organisers (which will lead to inconsistencies and cries of "how should we know"?)?
 
The RYA is the national authority charged with running dinghy sailing in all its forms.  It needs to stand up and be counted.  I don't care if it gets an initial estimate wrong, because they can issue new guidance when evidence shows they are wrong.  But someone has to make the initial estimate and the RYA are based placed to do that - to wash it's hands and say "not our problem" is a deriliction of duty IMO. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:52am
Originally posted by Punky

Originally posted by JimC

  The PYAG folk have more sense than to get in the fools game of guessing what handicaps might be for new classes.
 
So who should make that guess estimate in your view? 
 
The manufacturer (who will be perceived as having no particular incentive to suggest an accurate one) or race organisers (which will lead to inconsistencies and cries of "how should we know"?)?
 
The RYA is the national authority charged with running dinghy sailing in all its forms.  It needs to stand up and be counted.  I don't care if it gets an initial estimate wrong, because they can issue new guidance when evidence shows they are wrong.  But someone has to make the initial estimate and the RYA are based placed to do that - to wash it's hands and say "not our problem" is a deriliction of duty IMO. 

I agree with that ...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:53am
Originally posted by Punky


The RYA is the national authority charged with running dinghy sailing in all its forms.  It needs to stand up and be counted.  I don't care if it gets an initial estimate wrong, because they can issue new guidance when evidence shows they are wrong.  But someone has to make the initial estimate and the RYA are based placed to do that - to wash it's hands and say "not our problem" is a deriliction of duty IMO. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:53am
Originally posted by Punky

Originally posted by JimC

  The PYAG folk have more sense than to get in the fools game of guessing what handicaps might be for new classes.
 
So who should make that guess estimate in your view? 
 
The manufacturer (who will be perceived as having no particular incentive to suggest an accurate one) or race organisers (which will lead to inconsistencies and cries of "how should we know"?)?
 
The RYA is the national authority charged with running dinghy sailing in all its forms.  It needs to stand up and be counted.  I don't care if it gets an initial estimate wrong, because they can issue new guidance when evidence shows they are wrong.  But someone has to make the initial estimate and the RYA are based placed to do that - to wash it's hands and say "not our problem" is a deriliction of duty IMO. 

I agree with that ...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:54am
I reckon a class should have to pay a fee to get a PY listed annually...  that way every tin-pot 2 boat class cannot expect to keep one unless they pony up.   Nor would every fred-in-his-shed new class developer be automatically entitled to one either.  Net result, consolidation of classes with any luck.

This would free up resource for a proper pre-EN assessment by the RYA / PYAG.

The fee should be spent on better biscuits for Jim and Chris, and a little held back to mount a better defence fund than Sailing Anarchy has when a disgruntled punter takes grievance against the sh*t they put out.


Edited by kneewrecker - 19 Sep 14 at 11:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:59am
Originally posted by Null

Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by kneewrecker




If RS has any influence over the Aero retaining the 1040 whilst the D-Zero gets a cobbling down the ranks, then I think that reflects incredibly badly on them.


They (RS) almost certainly have had no hand in that, I'd been chatting to Martin that very morning and they were concerned more at the drubbing they'd had at all you Zero fanbois and feeling upset by it all given they've not exactly pointed out all the faults of the Zero in the way the reverse has been the case.



Graeme that's absolute bull sh*t!  No one has drubbed the boat, there has just been talk over the merits and pitfalls of both!  They 'RS' had a drubbing from me and others over how they marketed the boat.  I have questioned some of their decisions around the build, but frankly why wouldn't I?  I am a paying consumer after all! There have been claims in marketing about Big Ben Ainsle that were retracted, boat tests done by the now class manager, turning up to competitors demo days, selling a product that weighs 42kg all up as lift able.  They (RS) didn't need to do any of that, it did them no favours, just made what is the most professional outfit in this industry look like it is run by amateurs.  They could of just sold the boat for what it is, please don't start playing a small violin because you have some hidden agenda as to you real change of buying choice!  The only facts we have available are:

1) Some Bozo has made up a PY for a handicap one off event, using an RYA system.  The NUMBER IS NOT RATIFIED

2) You spoke with the MD of RS yesterday, then decided to cancel you order with their direct competitors product......

Hold on here, that they have marketed the boat is no different to any other successful manufacturing business. You are now you are saying the boat is 42kg all up as if that has somehow been misleading. Firstly the boat has only ever been said to be 30kg hull weight so bound to weigh more all up and yes you can still pick it up all up if thats you thing, just watch the yachting world video or go and pick one up with a mate at the boat show as I did last Friday.

The zero is quoted as 40kg hull only so at least talk apples with apples. It presumably is something like 52 kg all up and there has been plenty of drubbing on this forum mostly from people who as far as I can see have never sailed and in some cases never seen an aero in the flesh. And before you steam in I have sailed both in light and heavy conditions.

The veiled accusation that the test in Y&Y is fudged by the class manager is totally disingenuous as he was approached post test and as I understand it even changed his future sailing plans, presumably because he enjoyed the boat so much. I was there when they all came off the water and all three testers were buzzing. The actual commentary in Y&Y is actually very toned down if you bother to read it.

I like both boats very much and have resisted direct comparisons and could happily sail either. Has my club chosen the right boat for the location, yes i probably think they have, but our conditions are not the average so its no sleight on the Dzero. Both suppliers are professional and decent people which perhaps doesn't apply to all within the trade. I am pleased that they both seem to have given up commenting on here as constantly adding snippy unbalanced remarks such as above is not helpful whichever 'camp' you have found yourself in.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Punky


The RYA is the national authority charged with running dinghy sailing in all its forms.  It needs to stand up and be counted.  I don't care if it gets an initial estimate wrong, because they can issue new guidance when evidence shows they are wrong.  But someone has to make the initial estimate and the RYA are based placed to do that - to wash it's hands and say "not our problem" is a deriliction of duty IMO. 


But hang on a minute - last week we were gerrymandering idiots because we published an EXPERIMENTAL number for the Icon that was "clearly wrong".......

We really are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

This years clubs returns will be made by end of November which will spit out a number for any zeros and aeros that are currently racing on handicap. During January the PYAG will decide whether those numbers are legit and whether there is enough evidence to publish. By March the new national list should be out. I would hazard a guess and say aero and zero will be on the experimental list then but cannot guarantee it.

IMO that's not too bad for brand new designs that were released, what, this summer? Far, far better than the old system anyway. And I can be confident those numbers will be valid and based on the best data available, agreed by a group of people that do not have any manufacturer pressures over what number to publish whatsoever.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Punky


The RYA is the national authority charged with running dinghy sailing in all its forms.  It needs to stand up and be counted.  I don't care if it gets an initial estimate wrong, because they can issue new guidance when evidence shows they are wrong.  But someone has to make the initial estimate and the RYA are based placed to do that - to wash it's hands and say "not our problem" is a deriliction of duty IMO. 



But if they issue a trial number and then the evidence says it is wrong, people like grumph , who only appear to buy a boat if they think the yardstick is favorable, will then jump up and down saying "you can't change the number, my boat hasn't got any faster", with absolutely no regard for the fact that the guessed number will be wrong in the 1st place. If the number is too low, and the PYAG put it up, they will find something else to whinge about - maybe that they bought a boat expecting it to be faster than a so and so, because the number said so, and now it doesn't, and IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT!

Now, if there weren't prats around with no willingness to understand the system, then possibly the RYA could get involved in setting a trail number, maybe off the results of something like the Battle of the Classes. Meanwhile, clubs will just have to do what they have always done, and see how boats do on the water. The RYA has never set numbers on no data at all.
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