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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

I think I left a series of dots....... no words there then  Confused

I responded, I said I would never attempt to put words in your mouth.  I am many things, one of which is almost certainly not how I might come across when posting on a forum, so fill in the blanks yourself if you really want to.... although I've no desire to make my discussion here too personal outside of sailing experiences, I left Facebook for that very reason.
 
I am also not using the forum just to have a go at them either, nor bolster the sales effort of another- if you read my post that bumped this thread, I made no reference to the 'other boat', you did, in your reply.  There's a part of my ill-informed viewpoints that says damn them both to hell- at least the Laser is providing proper racing, and both are clearly targeting a very similar demographic, or at least re-styling the concept with a 21st century look and feel.  It's hardly 'technological advancement' in either respect, although only one is making such a claim in their marketing collateral, as they self proclaim, to be 'hitting the small sailboat world by storm'.  yeah, okay... if you say so.   

I have simply highlighted some perceived hype and imho, 'extended truths' in the latest press release.

FWIW - this thread was buried three pages deep before I bumped it, so I guess that old adage, there's no such thing as bad publicity might hold some water.




Edited by kneewrecker - 04 Sep 14 at 2:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Null

Simon that comment about the D-One open is a little disingenuous.  Gybing was not the difficulty  the odd wave pattern made making it downhill very tricky.  In fact i didn't dick it in on one gybe.  i did park it in the back of a wave on several occasions, but then so did Specky and the home sailors.  
Maybe you didn't have problems with your 100, does that mean the whole fleet is trouble free.  I'm sure it does RS or the Aero in fact any good starting to look at historic faults with classes.  Every manufacturer has problems, its the nature of the beast.  You are absolutely right its how you handle those problems that matter.  


I think you may have the spirit of that comment wrong, having sailed a d-one here for a few weekends, it is a brilliant boat and seriously lovely upwind. I was just making the point that even in that boat, which is more suited to here than the 100, that the seaway makes it more difficult and that a few who came thinking that the boat was easy to Gybe on flat water found it more difficult than they expected. It is IMHO the best boat of that type hands down.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 4:19pm
Thanks for that picture from Camel week, Null. I think we can say that RS have changed a few things!
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Thanks for that picture from Camel week, Null. I think we can say that RS have changed a few things!

yep, they've swapped a Hyde dacron sail with a North dacron sail for starters  LOL
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 5:33pm
Don't disagree Rupert.  But hard to see from photo, Sleeved sail in the picture, hull shape looks similar, or you can see similarities with it.  But you can see the similarities 
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 5:37pm
[/QUOTE]

I think you may have the spirit of that comment wrong, having sailed a d-one here for a few weekends, it is a brilliant boat and seriously lovely upwind. I was just making the point that even in that boat, which is more suited to here than the 100, that the seaway makes it more difficult and that a few who came thinking that the boat was easy to Gybe on flat water found it more difficult than they expected. It is IMHO the best boat of that type hands down.
[/QUOTE]

Which people are you referring too?  Like i say i don't think anyone found gybing on lumps the problem more the sailing down wind.  Gybing an assy on lumpy stuff is not a problem as most would wait for a flat spot.  The problem was the wave pattern and the ability to sail around the waves correctly.  Its difficult you really had to drive hard.  But I don't think any of the lake sailors struggled on the gybes because they were sailing on brine.  In fact no one mentioned gybing as a problem all weekend!  Given we only had one real race in proper wind you can see why!
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 7:55pm
Blimey it's all getting a bit emotive today!

You need to be careful not to come across too fanboyesque.

Some will choose the aero, some will choose the d-zero, just let it be. Why does it always turn into a sledging match?

I personally prefer the d-zero, but close friends are more taken by the aero, so clearly both have something going for them.

Regarding marketing, I'm not sure RS have really changed the marketing strategy other than subtle refinement to take maximum benefit from social media and websites. Where they have clearly changed is their product strategy, but if they are being driven by the notion that businesses have to continually grow then change is inevitable as they would stagnate if there products stayed the same. I'm not a fan of their strategy, but I understand it. I only hope they can avoid ditching all their racing fleets for sailing centre training craft. At the moment they seem to be perched in a precarious position trying to offer a bit of everything.
As for the quality of later products, the 700 is fine, it was beaten by the Musto because Sten bought into the Musto and put in a lot of work to help everyone else. The early adopters to the 700 were largely wealthy, super competitive types who didn't like to share. If Sten had gone for a 700 I suspect history would be very different. The 500 is in a difficult market sector than very few have got to work, and the 100 was ruined by being designed by this forum rather than being left to people who actually knew what they were doing. As for Suntouched, Rodney is doing a cracking job given where he started his business from, but I worry that he could so easily be dicked about by the builder if the builder doesn't make the margins. The joys of being a middleman I guess?

Anyway, let the competition commence on the water, not in the virtual world.
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Null View Drop Down
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 14 at 8:09pm
Paul,
The debate has not really been heated or about the Zero Vs. Aero, certainly I  have tried to avoid that.

Its been a good debate either way!
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Posts: 4 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Random Precision Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 1:27pm
For what it's worth, I've sailed both boats in similar conditions, F4-5, on the sea in waves.

IMHO if you're a Laser sailor wanting to trade up to something quicker and more balanced, the D Zero is a better fit. 

Compared to the Aero 7 I sailed, everything seems to be in the right place as soon as you get on board. The only new skills needing to be learned are how to set the rig up, (which is superb) e.g. how much kicker cunningham to use in the conditions.

The Aero was more tricky to sail upwind, I was fully de-powered and found I had to play the sheet a lot to keep it in the groove, this I found harder work than the Laser would be, and much harder than the D Zero, which naturally spilled wind better in the gusts.

Off wind the Aero was probably a bit quicker but more difficult to gybe, especially if you try to gybe it like a Laser.

I had deposits on both boats, and based on the above decided to go with the D Zero. 

Just my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 14 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by Random Precision

For what it's worth, I've sailed both boats in similar conditions, F4-5, on the sea in waves.

IMHO if you're a Laser sailor wanting to trade up to something quicker and more balanced, the D Zero is a better fit. 

Compared to the Aero 7 I sailed, everything seems to be in the right place as soon as you get on board. The only new skills needing to be learned are how to set the rig up, (which is superb) e.g. how much kicker cunningham to use in the conditions.

The Aero was more tricky to sail upwind, I was fully de-powered and found I had to play the sheet a lot to keep it in the groove, this I found harder work than the Laser would be, and much harder than the D Zero, which naturally spilled wind better in the gusts.

Off wind the Aero was probably a bit quicker but more difficult to gybe, especially if you try to gybe it like a Laser.

I had deposits on both boats, and based on the above decided to go with the D Zero. 

Just my opinion.

I have done the same and I would agree with much of what you say. I think stepping from a laser to a Dzero feels very easy as you have wide rolled decks which are very comfortable and aft sheeting with a small traveller system which is far more effective than the laser rubbish one.

The rig works very well and it has a nice sail shape. 

The aero rig is more ' laser like ' in set up. Lasers are now sailed with huge amounts of kicker and progressively cunningham and the aero is the same. I would agree that the aero is more sensitive and needs more concentration upwind, but once you find the sweet spot it goes very well. I am not sure why, but the Dzero feels as if it has a bit more form stability so it doesn't feels quite so sensitive/twitchy. There is no issue in respect of either upwind as far as I am concerned but agree that they feel different.

Downwind I would have a different opinion on the aero in comparison to the laser in the gybe. The rudder has complete control at speed, and the gybing was very easy. It has a big planing area at the stern and that keeps it very stable through the gybe (and of course neither boat catches the mainsheet). I found no real difference between it and my supernova, which is a doddle to gybe next to the laser. The lightness of the aero means things may move a bit quicker, but in 18 knots or so it was no problem.

The Dzero gave no issues on the gybe either, although in my demo conditions it needed more concentration than the aero to steer around steep waves. Inevitably the sharp nose will hunt the odd one out and it will push in, not in a terminal way, but it slows until it pops out. I have no idea of comparative speeds downwind, but from what we have seen at the club I would guess that the aero 7 and the Dzero will be similar downwind in good weather, with the aero 9 being faster. In steep waves the aeros will probably be faster as the nose is higher and more bouyant and the line from the bow is straight so they don't slow as much, tending to lift over the wave. As can be seen from the pictures, they are pretty bow up off wind anyway.

Upwind I expect the boats to be pretty similar, with the Dzero and the 9 shading the 7.
I actually went the other way with an order for an aero, not because I didn't like the Dzero as I really did, but for two reasons only, the aero coped better in our particular short tidal chop and more importantly a whole group of people at the club are ordering aero's so at last we may have some fleet racing. 




Edited by SimonW99 - 05 Sep 14 at 8:37pm
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