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D-Zero

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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: D-Zero
    Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:46am
Originally posted by rich96


Don't buy something that probably is too big and powerful for you in the first place simply because you thought it might have a good handicap and be able to beat some Solos and Streakers on a local lake.



It's not up to you to tell me what to buy. As it happened I bought this EPS on somebody's recommendation and I don't regret it, on the sea it can be sailed to its handicap and I've done so.

This D Zero is a lake boat, it is hopeless on the sea and I wouldn't give it a second look as such, so now, with a handicap I wouldn't have a cats chance in hell of achieving on a lake and certainly no chance on the sea, I've changed my mind. Had it remained as the designer suggested, amply demonstrated to me, and I've demo'd myself as being on or around 1045-50 I'd have done so. Clearly there are forces in place that will degrade that handicap, wether protectionist outfits like Great Lakes that are probably in thrall to the commercial builders of those classes they protect, or somebody in the pocket of RS or Cirrus or whoever, I don't care, my money is going elsewhere, probably on white goods now we're moving and I'll bumble about doing something else, I'm getting really bored with it all now anyway, dinghy sailors always were sheep letting themselves get herded about and being regularly shorn, well not me, sorry, I aint playing.

Edited by iGRF - 19 Sep 14 at 9:49am
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Null View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:54am
Graeme.

What handicap are you suggesting means you wouldnt have a cat in hells chance???  THERE IS NOT OFFICAL PY FOR THE ZERO YET!!

So how could a reasonable or even completely deranged bloke make an assumption on the basis of a document that is devoid of factual data, is ruhmored to be written by a Yacht club that doent even have a proper dinght fleet, made to look like its official RYA...but isnt!??????



Would you buy a pair of fake Oakley sunglasses and the complain that they were not real?  You have completely misread this situation.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:55am
Graeme- I'd spend the 5 grand on pimping the living f*ck out of that EPS.  

Get it sanded down and professionally resprayed in utterly distasteful colours.    Put a kite on it and wire it up.  Buy a a couple of seriously cool custom sails that suit heavy and light winds - make sure the strand is pink or green.

Put a decal of some enormous tits on the mainsail.... just to cause some real offence, tut-tutting and head turning.

Pay a grand to display at the Dinghy Exhibition - right at the entrance - hoist a banner above it, printed  'look what your missing dickhead' and be proud that no one agrees with you, therefore you must be right.    

Frankly, and with respect, at your age why worry about the resale value anymore than this PY b**locks?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:56am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

 
As it currently stands, Bas (and Chris) have been very clear- an official EN will ONLY be published based on data from club returns.

Well what happens in the critical weeks months of a new product launch before these returns arrive?

At this pivotal point we are left with random numbers created by god knows whom which are presented as RYA figures to the market anyway ... it is a joke.

Bas (and Chris) are probably better positioned and (hopefully) commercially neutral and should make a stab at a starting number ... 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:56am
OK my last post on the subject:

The numbers on the Battle of the Classes handicap list definitely haven't come from the RYA technical dept, or the PYAG.

What seems to have happened is that someone has used the blank pursuit race calculator spreadsheet from the RYA site (which obviously has an RYA logo on it) to work out the start times and they have populated it with their own handicap numbers, then published directly to the event site as is.

So any Battle of the Classes specific handicap numbers issue would be best taken up with the organisers - I'd suggest either Sailracer or Royal Corinthian YC and SWAC.

I appreciate this looks like the RYA have issued these numbers but they haven't. I've been advised that the document will be altered on the RYA site so this scenario can't happen again.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 10:00am
Chris,
Thanks for the clarity. However can i also suggest to Sail racer that they remove the document and reformat removing the RYA logo as you can see the distress it has caused here.  Costing a manufacturer and order!!!  and several others grief, not to mention any accounted damage made by clubs picking up this and using it to make the basis for local adjustments.

Frankly its not on.  i would of hoped the RYA would of taken someone using their logo a little more seriously......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 10:03am
Originally posted by kneewrecker




If RS has any influence over the Aero retaining the 1040 whilst the D-Zero gets a cobbling down the ranks, then I think that reflects incredibly badly on them.


They (RS) almost certainly have had no hand in that, I'd been chatting to Martin that very morning and they were concerned more at the drubbing they'd had at all you Zero fanbois and feeling upset by it all given they've not exactly pointed out all the faults of the Zero in the way the reverse has been the case.

Both these products deserve to succeed, would have succeeded if left to market forces, without organisational shenanigans in the name of the RYA. I am going to see if I can get at the very least a lawyers letter winged over to them, see if that makes them sit up and spot they're f**king up something they should be running more pro-actively.

It is wrong. Just as it is wrong for whoever gave the 'Fire' 1075 when all it is, is a Blaze racked right out, built down to weight, with a smaller sail ideal for the conditions, the Icon reduced from 1020 to 969 arbitrarily due also to someone sailing one on one lake that just by chance comes at a time contractural rights are being argued over and one company wants the other to appear to be failing.

Really we don't want to know about all this, we need a strong Governing body that cannot be manipulated by Event organisers wanting a monopoly or a software company wanting to profit, a manufacturer wanting temporary commercial advantage.

Meanwhile we the punters suffer.

Edited by iGRF - 19 Sep 14 at 10:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bas Edmonds Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 10:04am
Graham and anyone else reading this post,
 
Lets throw some facts into the discussion.
 
1. The document published for the Battle of the Classes has been downloaded from the RYA website - it is published as a guidance document and is intentionally blank as published. It is up to the clubs to decide the handicaps that it wishes to use to provide its members with what it would consider fair racing. It is not endorsed by the RYA but it is provided by the RYA in order to help clubs set timings for pursuit racing.
 
 
2. The Portsmouth Yardstick scheme is run for clubs, not classes. The numbers published by the RYA for each class are offered to the clubs to be able run mixed class racing - it is purposely put out as guidance and clubs are reminded that the RYA PN numbers are based on averages and therefore may need adjusting for each club. It does not pick on classes and its data is only based on the returns from clubs.
 
3. Everyone has a theory on how to run a National Handicap System. It is unsurprisingly a fairly unpopular job and I have to say a big thank you to every volunteer who puts his head above the parapet and supports the RYA directly in their knowledge, time and passion for helping us improve the system. I would also like to thank all of the clubs who use the system and provide us with the feedback, good and bad, which helps us develop the PY. There are many un-sung heroes in each club who manages the results, adjusts numbers and returns data to the RYA - all in support of the system.
 
4. I am just starting to prepare for what we call internally, "Handicap Racing Season" in the RYA where we start to collect the data and review potential developments for 2015. I think some of the points here are valid and we can look into progressing them forward. Some less so but interesting to read. Ultimately if you are passionate about handicap racing, why dont you put your hand up and volunteer to help the system from the inside?
 
My email is bas.edmonds@rya.org.uk - Handicap Racing is a small part of my personal role at the RYA, but one which I am very passionate about, but I also have an excellent team of staff and volunteers who would be happy to discuss your concerns and ideas. Please do so individually as we have little spare time to monitor forums.
 
If there is a desire, I would be happy to arrange open discussions at your club on Handicap Racing or see if an open discussion/forum at the Dinghy Show could be arranged for 2015. Either way, we are happy to take your feedback and flak and there is no decision made that we cannot justify with hard data and facts.
 
Cheers,
 
Bas Edmonds
RYA Technical and Racing Services Manager
 
Bas Edmonds
RYA Technical
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 10:08am
Originally posted by Null

Frankly its not on.  i would of hoped the RYA would of taken someone using their logo a little more seriously......

no it's not, but as Chris explained it seems like a fairly simple and unintentional mistake to make when the RYA publish something in such easily editable formats.  

The REAL issue for the D-Zero here is why it's got a 1010 as a number in the first place, which has very little to do with the Aero's 1040.  

IMHO- I think it's a bit of stretch to assume anyone at RS has influenced that, even if they are donating a prize.  

I know this may strike as a bit of an RS apologist post, but for all I could levy at them, manipulating the PY system isn't one of them.  Frankly I've got the impression that PY racing and its politics are a bit beneath them anyway...   

You guys need to either take issue with the RO (and by association, probably the GL guys) or you need to pull out of the event - as Graeme is essentially doing by retracting his order on these grounds.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 10:14am
All well and good, but it happened and you need to get a grip.
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