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Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
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Joined: 10 May 04
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: RS aero
    Posted: 10 Feb 15 at 9:36am
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I do hear quite a few people talking about poor second-hand value as a reason they will not buy into a class, and in the big racing boat market I think the number of active players is small enough that those in the business can get an accurate idea of their motivations.

The collapse in price because of reduced demand may certainly be an issue in other markets; I'm probably guilty of letting myself be ruled by preconceptions generated in a place where prices may be more stable and buying decisions may be different, as there is vastly less change in classes.
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iiitick View Drop Down
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Posts: 478 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 15 at 9:57am
I suppose there are different reasons for buying brand new. Getting in to a new class like Aero or Zero there are only new boats available. Perhaps for a few years talented but poverty stricken youth are denied a go simply because of lack of funds so the entrants will be wealthy (comparatively) or at least established. The 'former boy' is now established, house car etc. and can indulge himself as he pleases. The old Byte, which actually belongs to me, has shown no sign of losing performance but how nice for him that he can indulge himself in a brand new boat. No more make do and mend, no more three digit sail numbers! What pleasure for him that he has ordered the whole kit all new. Under cover, top cover, mast bag, spare sail etc. etc.

Boats are like cars really, secondhand ones are just as good but how nice to buy new! 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 15 at 10:08am
Originally posted by Old Timer

Originally posted by SimonW99

Lightness makes the boats far more responsive, the react very quickly. miss a puff or a shift and the guy next to you is gone and vice versa.

Its a little like comparing boats from the volvo now to those doing the whitebred 25 years ago. I sat on a rib and watched the V70's leave Portsmouth a few years ago they were all side by side  with very little wind at all. As the bits of wind filled, the guys who made the calls slightly quicker got the acceleration and were away. By the time we were off cowes with the mid fleet boats the leaders were at hurst point. The gaps opened up that quickly. 

Try racing an aero and it really is like that. They react so quickly you can make big gains or losses boat on boat in very little time. 

 Having sailed Lasers, the difference is very noticeable.



I fear you may be getting a little carried away young man. 

But it's nice to see someone excited with their new toy. 

Delighted to be called young man, hasn't happened for a very long time! OK, lets try this another way. Lightness improves responsiveness, less mass means faster acceleration. Colin Chapman principles etc.
If boats are more responsive and react quicker the opportunity to win or lose places on a single wave or gust is increased, so getting ahead and just covering is far less easy as if the person behind you can catch a wave you can't they can take say 10 m out of you rather than 5m in a less responsive boat. 

I'd make two points from Sundays race - 

 In a wave and gust opportunity the 35kg less weight of the aero inc rig over a laser was so blatant that the laser seems slow to react on a reach, a point we know where they are far from slow.

The two experienced sailors who were in borrowed boats for the first time both came off the water and kept talking about the weight and the effect on acceleration and responsiveness around other boats. I saw one of them collect a wave, a pump and took 10-12 m out of a boat that I wouldn't have expected.

These boats are not a nirvana in any way, but all I can suggest is get a race in one, preferably in waves and then get back in the laser and tell us that racing is no different.  

The key point I will come back to here is that aero on aero racing is enhanced because of the weight and is more nip and tuck. I am sure the same applies to the Dzero as well.

I am way past getting excited over a new dinghy, but I am excited about the fact we have a proper developing one design fleet.
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salmon80 View Drop Down
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Posts: 119 		Post Options Post Options   Quote salmon80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 15 at 11:23am
Depreciation is a big factor for me, wouldn't want to lose so much money ....

Some classes, solo is obvious example actually appreciate in value :0

10 year old winder might be worth £4000 wouldn't have cost that new in 2005. So saying it's ok to buy a zero aero or anything else for a loss of 1000 a year doesn't suit everyone

Too many classes too many failures the sport only exists to make profit for a handful doesn't it?

That's why participation is down and you can't find any 20 boat fleets any more ....

I might be somewhat 'troll like' and I certainly like a rant ;) but isn't there some truth in what I say?
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 15 at 11:27am
Originally posted by salmon80

10 year old winder might be worth £4000 wouldn't have cost that new in 2005. So saying it's ok to buy a zero aero or anything else for a loss of 1000 a year doesn't suit everyone

hell no- it doesn't suit everyone, guess the fact that we have options is great.  
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 15 at 11:32am
Not sure I'd say that any of the racing classes make enough profit for that to be the motivation. Yes, profit is needed, or we won't have any new boats, let alone new designs.

I'd say the Aero is a fine example of a new boat catching on because it was designed with a very clear vision and market. Most of the single handers over the last 30 years have simply been variations on a theme or quite extreme. The Aero and Zero set out to make use of the technology available now and design to it, rather than fitting it into a set of rules designed for wood or csm.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Old Timer View Drop Down
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Posts: 370 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Old Timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 15 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

Originally posted by Old Timer

Originally posted by SimonW99

Lightness makes the boats far more responsive, the react very quickly. miss a puff or a shift and the guy next to you is gone and vice versa.

Its a little like comparing boats from the volvo now to those doing the whitebred 25 years ago. I sat on a rib and watched the V70's leave Portsmouth a few years ago they were all side by side  with very little wind at all. As the bits of wind filled, the guys who made the calls slightly quicker got the acceleration and were away. By the time we were off cowes with the mid fleet boats the leaders were at hurst point. The gaps opened up that quickly. 

Try racing an aero and it really is like that. They react so quickly you can make big gains or losses boat on boat in very little time. 

 Having sailed Lasers, the difference is very noticeable.



I fear you may be getting a little carried away young man. 

But it's nice to see someone excited with their new toy. 

Delighted to be called young man, hasn't happened for a very long time! OK, lets try this another way. Lightness improves responsiveness, less mass means faster acceleration. Colin Chapman principles etc.
If boats are more responsive and react quicker the opportunity to win or lose places on a single wave or gust is increased, so getting ahead and just covering is far less easy as if the person behind you can catch a wave you can't they can take say 10 m out of you rather than 5m in a less responsive boat. 

I'd make two points from Sundays race - 

 In a wave and gust opportunity the 35kg less weight of the aero inc rig over a laser was so blatant that the laser seems slow to react on a reach, a point we know where they are far from slow.

The two experienced sailors who were in borrowed boats for the first time both came off the water and kept talking about the weight and the effect on acceleration and responsiveness around other boats. I saw one of them collect a wave, a pump and took 10-12 m out of a boat that I wouldn't have expected.

These boats are not a nirvana in any way, but all I can suggest is get a race in one, preferably in waves and then get back in the laser and tell us that racing is no different.  

The key point I will come back to here is that aero on aero racing is enhanced because of the weight and is more nip and tuck. I am sure the same applies to the Dzero as well.

I am way past getting excited over a new dinghy, but I am excited about the fact we have a proper developing one design fleet.

OK - so what your are claiming is the light weight means they accelerate faster; and of course by the same means decelerate faster too ...

So given they are similar PY to a Laser they squirt off in the gusts and stop in the lulls as the more lardy Laser is slower to accelerate but keeps going in the lulls ...

Hard to believe that the lower hull weight of the Aero dramatically changes the dynamics of racing compared with the veritable Laser. 

The Aero is what ... 30kgs lighter all up than a Laser; so if you add in say an 85kg helm the Aero all up is perhaps 15% lighter all up as a loaded vessel ... hard to see that 15% is that significant.

The main benefits of the Aero's lightness must be in handling on the shore.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 15 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Old Timer

 

The main benefits of the Aero's lightness must be in handling on the shore.

until it blows off the trolley and splits open down the side that is....
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Guests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 15 at 3:42pm
The rig is much lighter on the aero so the difference must be a bit more than that - 35kg at least and the helm weight is mobile so can be used. Laser hulls sailed on the sea are also notorious for putting on a bit of middle aged spread! 

Not sure where you are getting your PY's from but even the aero 7 handicap is 22 points harsher than a full rig Laser. the 9 is 57 points lower on our initial sea handicap of 1035, so its a decent bit faster.

You won't find out by making comments on this forum, but go to a demo day or borrow one and see.

Its stay less and rotating mast on a gunwale hung trailer, so unless you are a plonker and leave the mainsheet restricted with the sail up sits on its trailer just fine in my brief experience. That said I tend to leave mine mast down and with a tie down.  
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turnturtle View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 05 Dec 14
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 15 at 3:54pm
Look Old Timer - this is Sailing 2.0 .... 'Aeronauting'.... it's just closer racing than ever conceivably possible in the Laser; you have to believe Simon they had 6 boats out the other day..... and it's all down to the lightweight, rooftop friendly package!
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