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chrisg View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Sep 14 at 11:19pm
Graham,

Why do the RYA need to wake up and get a grip? They haven't published a number for the D-zero so how can they be nobbling the class?


Edited by chrisg - 18 Sep 14 at 11:20pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 14 at 11:38pm
Originally posted by chrisg


Graham,
Why do the RYA need to wake up and get a grip? They haven't published a number for the D-zero so how can they be nobbling the class?


I've PM'd you, but forgive me if I've missed something but I distinctly saw an RYA headed document and an event defining the PY of a boat I ordered because I believed it to be one thing, clearly defined as something else. You head up that committee they are using your system because you let them, therefore it is your responsibility.

Edited by iGRF - 18 Sep 14 at 11:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 7:20am
But it's not Chris's responsibility mate. The RYA make no promises around what someone will interpret as the PY for any given boat, neither do Devoti either.

All we appear to have is someone using the RYA logo on a document mocked up to look rather official.

Chris has very professionally said he will look into this and been very open about the current PY status.

I wouldn't blame him- it was inevitable under the GL schemes that the Aero and zero would be penalised. Even more reason to bin those events off and do something more casual / NWFish together imho.

Edited by kneewrecker - 19 Sep 14 at 7:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 8:08am
Originally posted by chrisg


Graham,
Why do the RYA need to wake up and get a grip? They haven't published a number for the D-zero so how can they be nobbling the class?


Isn't that the problem though? By taking such a laissez faire attitude to club racing the RYA have encouraged, compelled even, others to step in. Then we have several unofficicial numbers, no official number and confusion and fragmentation reign. It's not just PY numbers where the RYA steps back and absolves itself of responsibility, so please don't take this as a personal dig Chris, sadly the RYA leave club racing well alone and the lack of central organisation and control is the root cause of most of the dissatisfaction aired on this forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 8:17am
Exactly Jimbo, my concern was that this was official RYA (despite what Jim says) it looked pretty official given its on headed paper in an RYA format, relating to an event at a boat show which is also supported by the RYA...  We are now told its not, however its still a live page on the sail racer website!  (if i were them i would of taken it down)  my gripe was the drop of one class py vs another.
When neither class will have any data so to speak of to make that decision.  It all looked a bit cloak and dagger!

I appreciate that we will get hammered by the great lakes, i expect it to happen.  They wouldn't want a numpty like you or i turning up at the bloody mary and scoring big, because they had guessed the PY wrong.  Unfortunately Graeme this is the kind of nonsense you have to put up with when introducing new classes.  You more then anyone hanker after new equipment to push out the 'Coffin Classes' well im afraid mate, this is part and parcel of the process.  Experience also tells me that when offering a competitive product to a.n.other big manufacturer you have to put up with a lot of bullsh*t, its why i am so cynical.

FWIWIMO, the Zero wil end up with a PY of around 1030, (i reserve right to review this given time :-) )  As an average figure if the boat is sailed over many different water types, conditions and sailor ability.  Its a quick efficient boat, the simplicity of it would suit you style of sailing.  It allows you to just concentrate on which way to tactically sail.  Non of this head in the boat bull sh*t!  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 8:38am
So this means that the boat designer deliberately set out to misrepresent his product to me then?

It's designer parameters were clear, to make a more comfortable Laser, he raced it for two or three years off 1050 an excellent helm and the best rest he achieved a 2nd place and the win against us muppets at the FOM. That wasn't boat speed, that was helm speed by the way.

It follows then that Mike is also commercially misrepresenting the Fire using 1075?

The Icon must also have deliberately been mis represented.

This is all good sales of goods act stuff.

Maybe I should sue them, then see if they gather together and put this RYA body under pressure to get some common sense applied to a ludicrous situation that has become little more than anarchic.

Everyone manipulating it to their own ends.

Edited by iGRF - 19 Sep 14 at 8:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Thunder Road Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 8:40am
I spoke to the RYA a little time ago, to sort out some D-Zero admin. concerning the CA, I also took the time to speak to the PY organiser, he told me in no uncertain terms that the PY for the D-Zero would be based on club returns only, like every other class. I firmly believe this is what will happen in the fullness of time, all the rest is smoke and mirrors. Sail the boat you enjoy and encourage your sailing comm. to do their job, it really is as simple as that Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 8:42am
The only time a py has ever put me off even trying a boat is when the manufacturer has launched a new boat with a ridiculously fast py, thinking its a marketing 'advantage'. 

There have been enough dzero's sold that it wouldn't suffer the Alto fate as results will come through so wouldn't put me off unless I was trying to find a launch bandit LOL 

I hope we now have enough aeros coming to start a fleet so PY is less relevant from my point of view even if we sail within handicap races. 

We felt the time was right to try and bring a group together to try and get the critical mass of a fleet. No sailor with money to splash on a new single hander ( typically middle aged ) is going to  be told what to do, so we simply got the demos organised and then listened to the concensus. Both Suntouched and RS were great in providing this and had club deals available. There was no bias and it could have gone either way, or indeed they could have split. A couple of us said we would go with the flow and therefore no one felt pressured and we ended up with an 11 boat order. 

It was also important that the boats we compared were cost effective. From a cold point of view the Blaze probably remains the best boat for our club, but it's a bigger more costly option ( although not unreasonable for what you get) and there are some in the nascent aero group who just wouldn't entertain racks. 

Point being that we concentrated on the fleet aspect first, but gave everyone the option to demo, then pushed a date to meet and decide. Obviously it may all fall apart in a year or so, but there is some enthusiasm building and talk of some possible 5's for younger sailors, which is the holy grail of any sailing club survival.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:03am
Times are changing, I've never raced anything other than PY, the only events growing are PY events so it has to be resolved.

The Manufacturer must set a rating, it should be in place for a minimum of two seasons, as I said on Facebook just now, if the Manufacturer then abuses the system and it comes home, he can then be taken to task under the sale of goods act and misrepresentation.

Product values should not be devalued in this way, all those Icon, Phantom owners have lost thousands, now maybe the Phantom owners you could say 'serves you right' but not everyone purchases because of the 'bandit' status, some genuinely buy the boat for reasons of comfort, ease of handling and they are now victim of the system.

It is the system that needs stabilising, over all control needs to be established and that should come from a commercial group, not amateurs bumbling about periodically. Nor should organisations like Sailracer, Sailwave Sailjuice, Sailwhatever, be allowed to manipulate the system for their own commercial gain. It should be only permitted under license, make them pay for the privilege.

It's high time it was controlled
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:08am
Originally posted by iGRF

Times are changing, I've never raced anything other than PY, the only events growing are PY events so it has to be resolved.

The Manufacturer must set a rating, it should be in place for a minimum of two seasons, as I said on Facebook just now, if the Manufacturer then abuses the system and it comes home, he can then be taken to task under the sale of goods act and misrepresentation.

Product values should not be devalued in this way, all those Icon, Phantom owners have lost thousands, now maybe the Phantom owners you could say 'serves you right' but not everyone purchases because of the 'bandit' status, some genuinely buy the boat for reasons of comfort, ease of handling and they are now victim of the system.

It is the system that needs stabilising, over all control needs to be established and that should come from a commercial group, not amateurs bumbling about periodically. Nor should organisations like Sailracer, Sailwave Sailjuice, Sailwhatever, be allowed to manipulate the system for their own commercial gain. It should be only permitted under license, make them pay for the privilege.

It's high time it was controlled


Hmm, sounds like the sort dinghy anorak bullsh+t you and I normally laugh about....
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