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New ladies skiff

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    Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

To my mind it looks very nice ...

<snip>

she is in a big minority.
My tuppence worth.


Great observations and something I will bear in mind as my 3 daughters grow up.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gbrspratt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 7:45pm
Would a transom that narrow need unsticking? I guess every little helps?

Edited by gbrspratt - 21 Oct 11 at 7:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ham4sand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 7:42pm
where is it sailing?
 
and i was talking about free board from the pure aspect of putting weight forward to unstick the transom :) im no american, i have built my own fast wet boat thankyou!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SSolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 7:13pm
i've seen it sailing a number of times - no sign at all of nose diving. they had a the fat boys try putting the weight forward of the racks and failed

Peter is a N'cl graduate, and i think spent time working at  in Oz building the Omani 100ft trimaran. now he's Ovi's in house tech/deisgner



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Post Options Post Options   Quote gbrspratt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 6:18pm
Im not sure about the looks.... But I am pleased to see something new. Its growing on me slowly....do we know anything on the sail areas?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

To my mind it looks very nice - it is evident that it was designed by someone who can "think outside the box and challenge the ideals of a succession of box rule boats." I am
Confused by those who question the freeboard - you don't expect to sail a fast boat and stay dry do you? You're soaked to the chest just launching it - what are you, American? And if you're worried about reserve bouyancy - if you're that far in then you'll already have tripped over the pole.
I reckon it's a good progressive design.
Hopefully they can build it nice and light and at a good price.
Anyhow I agree with whoever said that large scale ladies skiff sailing will not take off. The aura will only succeed as a ladies skiff if it is selected for the 5 ring circus, or it is marketed as a skiff for lighter teams.
My reasons are as follows:
Plenty of young girls do 29er squad sailing - there are nearly as many girls as boys, and they seem to be on a pretty similar footing. All good. This is because the 29er is quick and exciting but accessible to a good sailor coming out of oppies/fevas etc. It is relatively cheap, physically accessible and also, DADDY IS PAYING. However, 29er sailing as a percentage of all U18 sailing activity will remain small. 
Fast forward to university age ( for the purposes of my demographic model, most girls who sail 29ers go to university)
Girls are now young ladies so no longer youth so the whole rya youth gravy train stops. Luckily, sailing is still provided for free (team racing) with awesome socials, so this usually is the main sailing avenue for young ladies of ages 18-22.
Get to graduating, and the attrition is pretty big for sailors, but particularly for girls. 
This is due to a number of factors:

Of the percentage of girls who sail, those who sail skiffs (well 29ers) up to 18 remains small in comparison to those sailing more conventional craft at club or even national level. 
Looking at dinghy sailing on the whole, how many rs200s are bought outright by all girl crews? Not many, I would venture, and whilst the competition is hot, a trained monkey could sail a 200 round a course, socials are good, boats plentiful etc. I. e it should be attractive on every level save a perception that it is not fast or exciting enough.
Now the problem with skiffs is that they aren't easy to sail until you know how. It's not a matter of physicality - you don't need strength or anything to sail one, but just like windsurfing, it requires a  load of esoteric skills, and until you learn them, you'll be doing more swimming than sailing. It is a fact of life that Girls are generally more risk averse than boys, and as with learning windsurfing, the fear of failure overcomes the need for achievement sooner. Girls have advantages over boys (generally) in other areas such as intuition and perception. Girls are motivated in very different ways and need very different coaching techniques than boys. 
Going forward to graduate level, those girls not at an elite level who will not have pursued "proper" sailing through uni rather than team racing are faced with a tricky choice. They are burdened with debt and not earning heaps. As such their disposable income is seeing a lot of competition. Do they: buy a skiff new, circa £11k split between two? That is equivalent to a 4 year old mini cooper, or 5 skiing holidays, or 10 pairs of Christian loboutin heels, or 50 Sienna miller esque haircuts or le creuset cookware or any combination thereof. How many girls would sacrifice all of that to swim around 10m radius of a swiftly depreciating rs800 for several months in the freezing cold with a similarly disillusioned pal in the hope that it eventually came together? Not many, especially if barely a handful would consider buying a boat and doing the 200 circuit with the superb attainable one design fleet racing and boozing/debauchery on a near team racing scale. 
Another difference between men and women as consumers is that the boys are more likely to be sold on a larger, unitary big ticket luxury item such as a sailboat (or motorbike / car etc) than a girl who (again generally speaking) would prefer her consumption spread out over smaller items giving a higher standard of living. 
The other undeniable truth is that by the time girls (and boys) are starting to earn well and are not so consumed by existential angst over which ikea coffee table best defines them as a person to contemplate buying a boat, then they are at a stage of  having to think about getting on the property ladder, and procreating. If we take the economics of rearing young out of this, would you make a large capital outlay on a luxury item that you would be unable to use for the next few year because you are too big/ knackered/ covered in stitches/ hormonal /unable to find a babysitter to use it?  I have seen a mate's wife windsurfing within 3 weeks of giving birth but I think she is in a big minority.
My tuppence worth.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 5:02pm
To my mind it looks very nice - it is evident that it was designed by someone who can "think outside the box and challenge the ideals of a succession of box rule boats." I am
Confused by those who question the freeboard - you don't expect to sail a fast boat and stay dry do you? You're soaked to the chest just launching it - what are you, American? And if you're worried about reserve bouyancy - if you're that far in then you'll already have tripped over the pole.
I reckon it's a good progressive design.
Hopefully they can build it nice and light and at a good price.
Anyhow I agree with whoever said that large scale ladies skiff sailing will not take off. The aura will only succeed as a ladies skiff if it is selected for the 5 ring circus, or it is marketed as a skiff for lighter teams.
My reasons are as follows:
Plenty of young girls do 29er squad sailing - there are nearly as many girls as boys, and they seem to be on a pretty similar footing. All good. This is because the 29er is quick and exciting but accessible to a good sailor coming out of oppies/fevas etc. It is relatively cheap, physically accessible and also, DADDY IS PAYING. However, 29er sailing as a percentage of all U18 sailing activity will remain small. 
Fast forward to university age ( for the purposes of my demographic model, most girls who sail 29ers go to university)
Girls are now young ladies so no longer youth so the whole rya youth gravy train stops. Luckily, sailing is still provided for free (team racing) with awesome socials, so this usually is the main sailing avenue for young ladies of ages 18-22.
Get to graduating, and the attrition is pretty big for sailors, but particularly for girls. 
This is due to a number of factors:

Of the percentage of girls who sail, those who sail skiffs (well 29ers) up to 18 remains small in comparison to those sailing more conventional craft at club or even national level. 
Looking at dinghy sailing on the whole, how many rs200s are bought outright by all girl crews? Not many, I would venture, and whilst the competition is hot, a trained monkey could sail a 200 round a course, socials are good, boats plentiful etc. I. e it should be attractive on every level save a perception that it is not fast or exciting enough.
Now the problem with skiffs is that they aren't easy to sail until you know how. It's not a matter of physicality - you don't need strength or anything to sail one, but just like windsurfing, it requires a  load of esoteric skills, and until you learn them, you'll be doing more swimming than sailing. It is a fact of life that Girls are generally more risk averse than boys, and as with learning windsurfing, the fear of failure overcomes the need for achievement sooner. Girls have advantages over boys (generally) in other areas such as intuition and perception. Girls are motivated in very different ways and need very different coaching techniques than boys. 
Going forward to graduate level, those girls not at an elite level who will not have pursued "proper" sailing through uni rather than team racing are faced with a tricky choice. They are burdened with debt and not earning heaps. As such their disposable income is seeing a lot of competition. Do they: buy a skiff new, circa £11k split between two? That is equivalent to a 4 year old mini cooper, or 5 skiing holidays, or 10 pairs of Christian loboutin heels, or 50 Sienna miller esque haircuts or le creuset cookware or any combination thereof. How many girls would sacrifice all of that to swim around 10m radius of a swiftly depreciating rs800 for several months in the freezing cold with a similarly disillusioned pal in the hope that it eventually came together? Not many, especially if barely a handful would consider buying a boat and doing the 200 circuit with the superb attainable one design fleet racing and boozing/debauchery on a near team racing scale. 
Another difference between men and women as consumers is that the boys are more likely to be sold on a larger, unitary big ticket luxury item such as a sailboat (or motorbike / car etc) than a girl who (again generally speaking) would prefer her consumption spread out over smaller items giving a higher standard of living. 
The other undeniable truth is that by the time girls (and boys) are starting to earn well and are not so consumed by existential angst over which ikea coffee table best defines them as a person to contemplate buying a boat, then they are at a stage of  having to think about getting on the property ladder, and procreating. If we take the economics of rearing young out of this, would you make a large capital outlay on a luxury item that you would be unable to use for the next few year because you are too big/ knackered/ covered in stitches/ hormonal /unable to find a babysitter to use it?  I have seen a mate's wife windsurfing within 3 weeks of giving birth but I think she is in a big minority.
My tuppence worth.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 4:40pm
good luck convincing me that the term one design is clear... another 'bullsh*t term' from the dingo derby that's liberally applied to boats which are neither the same design, nor designed the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by rogue

it's not, you'd have to have a clear definition of what 'one design' means, and as there are multiple designers of sails, foils, build paramenters for a mirror, you'd struggle to push that through.


The meaning of the term one-design has been well known for generations

Originally posted by rogue

a more unassuming and genuinely honest example of a sailing boat would be hard to find imo.  


You'll get no argument from me there Smile

Originally posted by rogue

But is it a 'true' one design like a controlled mould, highly processed boat like a Feva, Laser, Blaze etc... erm, no.


Of course it's a true one design (as are the Finn, 470 and 49er). If it weren't  true then it would have to be false i.e., NOT a one-design. The most appropriate description for Fevas, Lasers and so on would anally one-design. They're done that way for commercial reasons not to ensure level racing (that claim is just marketing botty water).


Best wishes from deep in the woods

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 11 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by olly_love

...
i have a b14 which is a one design- but can have different parts
a sonata which is a one design but can have differnt parts

and a TRUE restricted one design where everything has to come from the builder and be identical to another boat the LASER.

Lasers have different parts too. Or do tillers "not count"? 


IMHO, if the range is something like this. I would place Mirrors solidly in classification 2. 

1) SMOD. If it doesn't come in the box, it's not allowed. (Very) Closed class rules. 

2) Traditional One Design. (Fireball, FD, Mirror, etc etc. Too many to mention)
Defined as a One Design class in the Class rules. Class rules can be closed, or open, but boats built today would be recognized as one built to the plans of original designer - even if people have tweaked to the tolerances. Hull shape and rig planform are effectively unchanged from the original boats. Unlike SMODs, there are varying degrees of freedom on things like control layouts,foils etc. 

3) Restricted class. 
Development banned except where it's allowed. 
All sorts of ways of doing this. E.g.
i) restrict development to rig only, with a one design hull (18' skiff, Bembridge Redwing). 
ii) Or the other way round - development allowed in hull shape, and a one design rig (IOM). 
iii) Or permit development in both rig and hull, but within strict limits. (Merlin Rocket, National 12). 
In areas where development is permitted, the result is that hulls (or rigs, or both) are very different from original boats. Modern N12s look nothing like Uffa-Kings. 

4) Development class. Open class rules - development is allowed except where it's banned (e.g. no cats or windsufers in Moths) Examples - I14, International Moth. 
Boats built today look nothing like original boats built to class rules. Class rules specifically say that development is an aim of the class, and is (generally) encouraged. 


Edited by Presuming Ed - 21 Oct 11 at 3:56pm
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