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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dilemma
    Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by PeterG

Originally posted by RS400atC

The rules are in the rule book.
Those are the only rules.
People tend to make up other rules to suit their vague sense of what should be seen to be fair, but that's just opinion.

No there isn't a rule against this - and it's hard to see how there could be. But racing isn't only about rules. The rules are there, particularly at club level, to allow people to race against each other in an organised and enjoyable way. They can't cover every aspect of that. I agree with those who say there is a massive gulf between covering an opponent in the same class at the highest level, like the Olympics and doing so in a faster boat in a handicap race. Racing in the same class the covering boat has to apply considerable skill to pull it off. The covered boat by being skilfull can turn the situation round. If the covering boat is faster that doesn't apply, at least in the same way, and while it may all be within the rules, it's not something I would want to do, or feel at all happy about, particuarly in a club race. It would tend to feel like bullying on the water.

Nobody died.
The 'victim' just got a game of tactics instead of a drag race.
That can be all part of the fun.
It's certainly part of the sport.
If you don't want it in your club racing, maybe you need to look at changing the rules?

Personally I think trying to impose your own fictitious rules on other people can get pretty close to the line.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 1:02pm
It may 'only be club racing'  and also even that 'second rate' category of handicap racing at that... to a few 'racing pedants' and purists anyway ....

'Anything goes' for some within a legalistic definition of the rules in their seemingly narrow minded self serving elite racing world.  And 'we' as a sport cannot do better than this ??

I doubt they ever see any connection with a gradual decline in racing numbers and a decline in simple enjoyment through sailing and racing  ... you know around the clubs that nurture racing at its grass roots level and beyond.   I'll tell you here and in simple terms.  It is not right and hiding behind 'rules' or perhaps the absence of suitably nuanced rules that would stop such tactics does not make it right either. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 12:53pm
I know this horse has long since bolted, but in my heart the rules are just there to clarify who has right of way in a coming together situation, not as a tool to be used to tactical advantage by slowing someone down.  Except, of course, in match and team racing where it is the point of the game.  
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 12:05pm
At my old club, it was considered poor form to take the wind of Cadets, I would suggest that in so doing this would not be considered to be an insult.
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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 11:35am
We are racing. Ok its "only" club racing some would say, but all should be following the rules,racing correctly and fairly as at all events and at every level.

Modifying your racing style atclub level from the one you would use at any event is an insult to the people you beat.

Just go easy on the shouts and fist pumps at the annual prize giving!
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 11:23am
I've always hated that sort of behaviour, the very fact we're discussing it means we know in our heart of hearts it's wrong. It was nearly forty years ago I first encountered it at the Windsurfer OD nationals in the last race, at that time I couldn't really be beaten having had a good event, but I noticed a young ex RYA dinghy squaddie hovering above the start line, turned out if he took out another youngster he'd end up third, which he duly did, missed the start then covered the poor unfortunate right down the fleet and duly got his third place with absolutely no respect from any of us. he went on to become the RYA National Coach, so the technique gets perpetuated.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 8:56am
The original question was in relation 'Club level handicap' racing.   Beyond our perhaps self-important bubble world of the formal racing rules there is what could just be described as 'natural' justice.  No formal rules need to have been broken but society (not always mind !) has some simple expectations and standards when it comes to 'sport' in particular.  

I suspect the questioner in fact already knows them and perhaps now would take a different approach ....    
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 8:42am
Originally posted by RS400atC

The rules are in the rule book.
Those are the only rules.
People tend to make up other rules to suit their vague sense of what should be seen to be fair, but that's just opinion.

No there isn't a rule against this - and it's hard to see how there could be. But racing isn't only about rules. The rules are there, particularly at club level, to allow people to race against each other in an organised and enjoyable way. They can't cover every aspect of that. I agree with those who say there is a massive gulf between covering an opponent in the same class at the highest level, like the Olympics and doing so in a faster boat in a handicap race. Racing in the same class the covering boat has to apply considerable skill to pull it off. The covered boat by being skilfull can turn the situation round. If the covering boat is faster that doesn't apply, at least in the same way, and while it may all be within the rules, it's not something I would want to do, or feel at all happy about, particuarly in a club race. It would tend to feel like bullying on the water.
Peter
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 8:04am
WS Cases are also authoritative interpretations of the rules, thus have the same force as rules.

WS Case 78 is relevant.  Note that Case 78 expressly covers boats racing on handicap against other boats of different classes.

CASE 78
Rule 2, Fair Sailing
Rule 41, Outside Help
Rule 69.1(a), Misconduct: Obligation not to Commit Misconduct; Resolution
In a fleet race either for one-design boats or for boats racing under a handicap or rating system, a boat may use tactics that clearly interfere with and hinder another boat’s progress in the race, provided that, if she is protested under rule 2 for doing so, the protest committee finds that there was a reasonable chance of her tactics benefiting her final ranking in the event. However, she breaks rule 2, and possibly rule 69.1(a), if while using those tactics she intentionally breaks a rule.
Facts for Question 1
In a fleet race for one-design boats, boat A uses tactics that clearly interfere with and hinder boat B’s progress in the race. While using those tactics, A does not break any rule, except possibly rule 2 or rule 69.1(a). B protests A under rule 2.
Question 1
In which of the following circumstances would A’s tactics be considered unsportsmanlike and a breach of rule 2 or of rule 69.1(a)?
(a) The protest committee finds that there was a reasonable chance that A’s tactics would benefit her final ranking in the event.
(b) The protest committee finds that there was a reasonable chance that A’s tactics would increase her chances of gaining selection for another event, but would not benefit her final ranking in the event.
(c) The protest committee finds that there was a reasonable chance that A’s tactics would increase her chances of gaining selection to her national team, but would not benefit her final ranking in the event.
(d) The protest committee finds that A and a third boat, boat C, had agreed that they would both adopt tactics that benefited C and that there was a reasonable chance that A’s tactics would benefit C’s final ranking in the event.
(e) The protest committee finds that A was attempting to worsen B’s race or series score for reasons unconnected with sport.
Answer 1
In circumstance (a), A would be in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play.
In circumstances (b) and (c), A would break rule 2, and possibly rule 69.1(a).
In circumstance (d), both A and C would break rule 2, and possibly rule 69.1(a). In addition, by receiving help prohibited by rule 41 from A, C would also break rule 41.
In circumstance (e), A would break rule 2, and possibly rule 69.1(a) because, with no good sporting reason, her actions would clearly break recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play.
Question 2
Would Answer 1 be different if the boats had been racing under a handicap or rating system and if A had been faster or more manoeuvrable than B?
Answer 2
No.
Question 3
Would Answer 1 be different if, while using tactics that clearly interfered with and hindered B’s progress in the race, A had intentionally broken a rule?
Answer 3
Yes. Whenever a boat intentionally breaks a rule, she also breaks rule 2, and possibly rule 69.1(a).
USA 1991/282, revised by World Sailing 2009, 2013 and 2018
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 7:10am
The rules are in the rule book.
Those are the only rules.
People tend to make up other rules to suit their vague sense of what should be seen to be fair, but that's just opinion.

You may not like the fact that the rules allow a series to be won by using tactics against another boat in some circumstances, but those are the rules you have. There are aspects of the rules which I wouldn't choose, but we have to take them as they are.
It makes no difference that the two boats have a different PY, except that the slower boat of the two has an adavantage if he can tactically bring the other down to his speed.

The OP basically won the series because he had good scores in the previous races.
If the other boat was disappointed in not winning the series, they should look first at why they didn't win every one of the other races.
It's PY racing and not every race will be absolutely 'fair' from all points of view, either hope that it's all OK on average or go one design.
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