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Oli View Drop Down
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Joined: 23 Mar 05
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PYS Online
    Posted: 12 May 15 at 10:10pm
if more clubs on the sea returned numbers (which sail phantoms or not) then it wouldnt be.  you can either help with the solution with the lack of data or stop whining and actually come up with something else that works.  

heres a map of participating clubs and the types of water they sail on (any errors let me know what needs updating) as you can see yes its biased what a shocker, thats why you should locally adjust, whether its statistically accurate to the nth degree or not doesnt mater.  The national numbers aren't truly accurate either based on the returns, it just gives everyone a time that isnt rounded to the nearest minute so that you get some meaningful results.  what you take home from it from there is your own personal interpretation.

if you want handicap racing thats accurate (but biased towards a particular design) come up with a measurement rule and do that, or join the merlins, or 14's or fireballs they seem to all like it even some call it one design.  And if you want one design you know what to do.

but for py racing which isnt fair and never will be, just stfu and get on with it and stop trolling like a whinging child and put back in to it rather than disparage others hard work, especially when sailing offers such huge choice in what you can do.

i have on occasion agreed with some of your musings but on this subject and the way you conduct yourself you are very wrong.  i know its the internet and words here seem to be as meaningful as a horoscope in the sun but please dont just dismiss things so out of hand, actually try them out.

rant over

edit: map in link is now public.


Edited by Oli - 13 May 15 at 8:42am
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Time Lord View Drop Down
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Joined: 03 Dec 13
Location: Warwickshire
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Posts: 301 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 15 at 10:58pm
A well put rant!

Only problem apart from the PY system and a Wood follower from Kent is that access to your map is denied by Google. Is this a deep WB ploy to have the last word?
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Koops View Drop Down
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Posts: 52 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Koops Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 15 at 11:08pm
I agree with WB on this occasion. Sailed the POSH event last weekend, results published online for each class. Zeros, Blazes, Phants sailed same course starting together in around F4. Comparing the first place corrected times for the three classes across 6 races, Zeros and Blazes very similar but Phants consistently faster, and in conditions that are not the Phants best wind strength (faster when lighter wind IMHO). Fortunately all classes scored separately otherwise I think there would have been complaints about PYs.
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Guests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 7:19am
The PY scheme is like an opinion poll and the results should be treated with just as much caution.

The RYA need to manage expectations AND improve the way it is run imho. Loose the 4th digit, be more transparent about how the data is manipulated, apply some judgement where necessary (eg the Laser 2 case), proactively adjust PY when class rules change, provide guidance on how and when to locally adjust (to reduce the feeling of personal handicapping).

Would there be any support for presenting race results graphically? It strikes me Sailwave's spreadsheet table is a terrifically dull way of showing results. And the mauve/purple colour scheme has had its day!

Despite trying to be constructive, this will be seen as repetitive whinging by some, so I'll leave it there.




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gordon1277 View Drop Down
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Posts: 665 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 8:21am
Koops
so what your saying is the D Zero is a bandit of 1040 as it sailed the course at the same speed as the Blaze/ Fire. I agree about Paignton needing to update there Phantom handicap how many years out of date is 1035? I personally feel 1013 was about correct for me on the sea in a Phantom but as I was mostly last Phantom (apart from when those quicker cant read the course correctly) so its what I would expect.
I think the Phantoms did well on the Saturday as they can adjust the rig once at sea to suite the conditions where as others have to take a guess ashore.
Plus Mike especially is quick on flat water.
Gordon
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Joined: 13 Mar 15
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 9:06am
I love it when folk who disagree accuse you of trolling.. Having said that, that's an excellent map which does illustrate the imbalance in data, not that 1 more sea club is going to make an iota of difference when the mindset of those that would come up with EN's of 969 for the Icon still hold sway. I'm sorry I'm just not convinced and having been fed the bollox to shut me up regarding the 'new tomorrow' that never arrived, I reserve every bit of my right to moan, it's the internet where else are you supposed to do it?

Until the organisation of the Yardstick or A N Other Handicap system is managed by enthusiastic people who actually care and use it themselves it's not going to change.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 9:45am
Originally posted by gordon1277

Koops
so what your saying is the D Zero is a bandit of 1040 as it sailed the course at the same speed as the Blaze/ Fire. I agree about Paignton needing to update there Phantom handicap how many years out of date is 1035? I personally feel 1013 was about correct for me on the sea in a Phantom but as I was mostly last Phantom (apart from when those quicker cant read the course correctly) so its what I would expect.
I think the Phantoms did well on the Saturday as they can adjust the rig once at sea to suite the conditions where as others have to take a guess ashore.
Plus Mike especially is quick on flat water.

Now that is interesting as we are using the RYA PY at Hunts for both Phantom and D-Zero.

I will freely admit I am no rock star but we do have a local Phantom hotshot (was top 10 when he last did the nationals I believe) and I can now beat him quite consistently (which shouldn't be happening he is a far better sailor than me). There is some muttering about the D-Zero PY but our Sailing Sec has said we will stick with 1040 this year and look to change next year depending on what the published number does.

My gut is that the D-Zero will drop and the Phantom may come back up a little.
Paul
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 9:54am
Originally posted by Woodburner

I love it when folk who disagree accuse you of trolling.. Having said that, that's an excellent map which does illustrate the imbalance in data, not that 1 more sea club is going to make an iota of difference when the mindset of those that would come up with EN's of 969 for the Icon still hold sway. I'm sorry I'm just not convinced and having been fed the bollox to shut me up regarding the 'new tomorrow' that never arrived, I reserve every bit of my right to moan, it's the internet where else are you supposed to do it?

Until the organisation of the Yardstick or A N Other Handicap system is managed by enthusiastic people who actually care and use it themselves it's not going to change.

where you are wrong is that it is managed by enthusiastic people who care and use it.  I don't believe anyone sits on the PYAG with a vested interest- there's little point in it anyway, the numbers are ONLY results driven these days.

Where this is a clear issue is in service delivery- and that I'm afraid comes back to investment and ownership from the RYA.  As on outside observer the software and systems seems clunky and amateurish at best.  To get clubs like yours to engage, then I really think it's time a central real time data repository was front ended by a decent iOS and/or Android app.  

You simply get members to sign on electronically, using drop downs for data cleansed boat declaration,  then enter the ETs as the race finishes directly at the finish line.  Adding commands like Start Race, Record Lap (splits), Finish competitor, Finish Race etc you could have the timing automated and results available before the competitors are even ashore.  Crucially, they are uploaded to the central repository immediately if enabled with a SIM card, or at least in a very short while when back within range of wifi network.  

Hell - add some social media plug-ins and you might even find I 'like', 'heart' or 'gold star' a particularly good race in the euphoria that follows any decent sail - irrespective of the handicap system.  

I think if the operation were simpler, you'd actually see that bones of the system aren't flawed, and has actual improved over the years.  Neither is there the vested interest or group collusion by the PYAG you fear so greatly - this system would be far more transparent and with certain fields removed for data protection, the results could be shared universally.  

It's the execution and service delivery that lacks.  And before anyone says that's not true, please do feel free to justify why that excellent map in Oli's post is a sad reflection of the actual number of sailing clubs probably using the system.  Something is glaringly wrong, and telling apathetic people it's their duty to return data is a futile exercise- give them a reason to vote and they will vote.  

But who's going to front that kind of development investment?  And then there's the inevitable maintenance etc... imho, it's too much to expect that to be led by volunteers, or at best, a low return side project for IT geeks who happen to sail.  It requires the RYA to take ownership, and I'm sure their financial reserves could cover it, if they value club level dinghy sailing as part of their core responsibilities.


Edited by turnturtle - 13 May 15 at 10:11am
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 10:17am
Originally posted by turnturtle

 
where you are wrong is that it is managed by enthusiastic people who care and use it.  I don't believe anyone sits on the PYAG with a vested interest- there's little point in it anyway, the numbers are ONLY results driven these days.

  Neither is there the vested interest or group collusion by the PYAG you fear so greatly - 

Then why is there no transparency as to who this group are, I've heard lots of rumours plus the occasion post here from folk I immediately forget.

As to fear, wrong word choice, my feelings about them are similar to those one has for special needs kids, they need to be encouraged, but are never going to do exactly what you want them to.
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 10:22am
Originally posted by jeffers



My gut is that the D-Zero will drop and the Phantom may come back up a little.

And there you have the rub, the D Zero is now regarded as wrong because it's compared to another wrongly handicapped yet high chatterati factor boat and so the circle continues, round and round it will go unless you have one fixed marker. All this carried out on flat water.


Edited by Woodburner - 13 May 15 at 10:23am
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