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    Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 1:50pm
Crikey you folk must live at your PC's .....7 pages already!!!! Forgive me if I go back a bit.

Originally posted by SimonW99

Tide doesn't matter unless sailing an international moth.


With all due respect Simon, that isn't correct. In fact your statement is part of the problem.

If folk don't understand the contributing effects of sailing in tidal or non-tidal venues then they will always grumble if the get what they see (according to their understanding) as a particularly onerous locally adjusted PY.

Combine that with a lack of understanding about how the PY's are calculated and the importance of local adjustment and supplying returns.....well what can I say.

Most on here have good understanding of these things BUT the majority of average club sailors do not......they resist local adjustment because they don't understand the need. If they're above average then they'll possibly resist because they're clever enough to work it out and own a bandit for their waters. They're also more likely to be on the committee.

....and anyway, PY's can only be accurate over a longish series at the same venue regardless of local adjustments.

Edited by transient - 21 Oct 14 at 1:53pm
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by Rupert

And are there enough returns coming in from clubs which separate the boats out to start getting any sort of EN for them?

Certainly not enough making it to the class summary for any kind of EN. Not even close. What I don't know is whether any returns get discarded because they can't be identified with a class. Consistently identifying classes and configurations is a big challenge.

Edited by JimC - 21 Oct 14 at 2:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 2:19pm
As I sail in one of the most tidal stretches in the UK I am far from ignorant on the aspects of tide. We don't sail so-slows here Confused

My point was simply that tide on its own is not as important as wave conditions and wind range when it comes to handicap. A slim hull with some mass will generally drive through waves, when (in the round) it's mass can work against it on a lake.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 2:41pm
If you have a fast boat and a slow boat, then tide will make a huge difference. If you have 2 boats not too far apart in speed, but of vastly different weights, then wind and waves will be the more important factor. Of course, 2 boats vastly different in both weight and speed will hardly ever have a day when the handicaps don't favour one over the other, especially in waves and tide.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 3:07pm
Rupert, completely agree with that and thats my point that you ideally need to sail faster boats at tidal locations as a slow boat can miss a tide gate and they will be towing you back from France.

My comment re differentials is that if you take a boat that may be a perfect lake boat, it may have a hull shape that just doesn't work in waves or have a rig that is too overpowered. With a single PY number, it means that despite very different conditions which suit different boats, the handicap can be penal. A simply coastal / Inland number split would be helpful. Obviously you could analyse to the nth degree, but thats going too far.  
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 3:19pm
A while ago on here there was an excellent, eye opening explanation of the affects tides can have on both fast and slow boats, depending upon whether the wind is with or against the tide. Mostly, it appears to be about the amount of time spent on the beat compared to the down wind legs, but without sitting down and drawing it I'd have trouble remembering who benefits when. Even then, I expect I'd get it wrong, being a pond sailor!

From a practical point of view, don't most people sail a boat that vaguely suits the type of water they sail on, anyway? And if they don't, should their inability to see that a 49er might be crap on a narrow river or a British Moth a bit rubbish sailing off Scapa Flow be rewarded with a gift of a handicap?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 3:47pm
I am not talking about different boats, but exactly the same boat and the comparison of sea conditions to lake conditions. A boat that may excel on a flat lake may be dreadful on a rough wind over tide sea, but they have the same handicap.

If you take the phantom, it's really an inland optimised boat. You will have to be a big lad to sail it on the sea anywhere near competitively, never mind to a handicap driven mostly by inland returns.

However because of its long waterline, beam and large sail are its been having it away inland for some years. The result is that the vast majority of phants ended up being sailed inland and hence the handicaps finally caught up with them as they were nigh on unbeatable. However it would take benign conditions to sail to that on the sea. If it becomes too optimised to a location, then it suffers elsewhere and you get these movements that everyone complains about and the (hopefully temporary) drop in interest in the phant fleet as people seek the next optimised bandit. A two tier system may help reduce the optimised route.

Oh and yes and Transient I do understand a great deal about handicaps and how they work. 
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Posts: 715 		Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

As I sail in one of the most tidal stretches in the UK I am far from ignorant on the aspects of tide.


Fair enough Simon.....but it is very important, it also happens to be predictable unlike the weather. This predictability has prompted some clubs to incrementally adjust for slower boats with a "tidal PY". Unfortunately this doesn't work that well because there are some real tidal bandits in the bottom half of the PY list, giving them an additional leg up with beneficial adjustment really upsets some folk






Edited by transient - 21 Oct 14 at 3:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 6:30pm
Hiow about probabilistic PY results? 😱

You know, where you calculate the probability that your Laser beat their Solo by looking at the the PY probability density functions of each instead of a single fixed PY value. You'd get a result like "there is a 96% chance you were 1st..."
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Hiow about probabilistic PY results? 😱

You know, where you calculate the probability that your Laser beat their Solo by looking at the the PY probability density functions of each instead of a single fixed PY value. You'd get a result like "there is a 96% chance you were 1st..."


I like that idea - very Douglas Adams.
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