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GRF's rig school

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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: GRF's rig school
    Posted: 23 Nov 09 at 11:11am
So - here's the how to bit.

Given a mast how do dinghy sailmakers decide how to cut their sails?

Do they set up the rig, with the boom in place a length of none stretch line
between the end of the boom and the mast tip and another between the
end of the boom and the foot, then tension the rig?

That's how a windsurfer sail maker pre bends the mast, describes the
curve of the mast under load kind of draws it back like a bow.

That curve is then traced onto the bench and forms the basis for the luff
curve of the sail. The way it works with windsurfing sails, by matching the
curve of the mast to the curve of the luff in a positive way (introducing
enough seam shaping between the lower panels) you get the belly you
need for drive, then by reversing the curve to slightly negative from the
point at which you want the sail to twist off in ever increasing increments
(millimetres) by varying the curve of the mast with increasing downhaul or
tightening it up with less downhaul.

Downhaul and outhaul being the only controls available to windsurf rigs.

Now with a modern dinghy rig with say a GNAV, the only system I can
speak of with any experience of having studied, there are more controls.

It doesn't appear to me that there is much going on with the application of
luff curve seam shape. It all seems to be from broad seam shaping (that's
the panels of the sail being cut slightly curved or high pointed to generate
a curve. Some of the sails I have don't seem to be cut with a tight enough
leech to start with, some can be made to tighten up by virtue of the fact
the boom is sheeted from the rear and by really sheeting in hard, almost
block to block in fact the leech can be made to tighten, but when released
the leech tends to sag from the middle rather than twist off at the top.

Twisting off at the top rather like a propellor blade has been found to be
the more efficient means of exhausting rigs.

There doesn't appear either to be much attention paid to the flattening
effect a GNAV has over the leech tightening effect a kicker has for
example.

Go back to the opening description with the rig set up with bare none
stretch line, pull down on a kicker the tip of the mast will bend, apply a
GNAV and the middle of the mast will bend forward almost before the tip
of the mast bends, at least that's the way it appears on the three masts
I've experienced, so did they research that? And how did they research it, I
can't find any specs on t'internet.

There are sailmakers here, possibly reading this, how do you do it?

I'd be keen to hear.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Inland sea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 09 at 11:52am

Eee yikes where to start ...

I'm no expert but here goes from my understanding ...

Mast bend at the height of the Gnav is normally controlled by the lowers.

Yes the mast prebend is stated to the manufacturers, just have a look at the Pand B tuning sheet for the 5o5.

The Gnav does exactly the same as the kicker when the forward motion is controlled by the lowers. So you could all most say it is a kicker ... after all its name stems from an upside down vang ( American for kicker )

The lowers control the mast bend low down so you can set that portion of the mast where you want it. With a Skiff rig (12, 18, etc) you can make all kinds of mast shape to put the fullness where you want it

Looking at the boats you have experience with a Vang I guess you mean the RS 500 Laser 3000 Musto and Alto they all have lowers so when set correctly should prevent the forward bending moment.

The one control you have not mentioned at all is the spreaders. Combine the spreader length and angle with rig tension and you can prebend the middle third of the mast very accurately giving you your prebent luff curve that needs to be matched by any good sail maker.

 

Not sure if I should have entered the fray here but there you go ... I hope my basic understanding helps your understanding of the thinking from a dinghy sailors point of view.

RS300 426 18' SkiffTango Musto 051
B14 644
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Mikey 14778 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mikey 14778 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 09 at 11:57am
Originally posted by G.R.F.


Go back to the opening description with the rig set up with bare none
stretch line, pull down on a kicker the tip of the mast will bend, apply a
GNAV and the middle of the mast will bend forward almost before the tip
of the mast bends, at least that's the way it appears on the three masts
I've experienced, so did they research that? And how did they research it, I
can't find any specs on t'internet.

There are sailmakers here, possibly reading this, how do you do it?

I'd be keen to hear.


I'm not a sailmaker. But the thinking appears to be that you lock off the mast at gooseneck height (assuming your class rules
permit) by using a strut or chocks (less effective) or lowers. A conventional kicker now only affects leech tension and mast
bend by pulling at the top. A gnav however will still have an effect on the mast lower down.

Carry on....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 09 at 12:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender 541 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 09 at 12:42pm

+1

 

And that is something coming from me

When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss

Crew on 505 8780

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Pierre View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pierre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 09 at 1:11pm
+2


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Barty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 09 at 1:22pm

And remember a fresh pair of eyes on a new product is priceless particularly if they can look at it from a different sector.  Everyone that spends alot of money on a product will try and justify it along with those selling it but nothing is every perfect! 

Personnally I enjoy GRF's post particularly watching others take his bait!  But to me there are 2 types of sailors (boards, dinghies, leadmines etc) those that can without scientific understanding and those that can but need scientific justification.  Whilst the scientific/technical aspects help model performance and drive efficency, there are people out there that can look at a boat (picture or in the flesh) and say that looks wrong.  9 times out of 10 if it looks wrong, it is!  When they moved from square riggers to cutters, did they have computers crunching VPP's etc.....no they cut a sail, tried it, looked at it, listened to feedback and developed the next generation.  It wasn't a case of 'I've just spent a lot of money on a new sail so even though it's sh*t I will say its great so that the manufacturer can selling a lot more and we can all go slow' it was more a case of 'this sail looks sh*t, handles sh*t and is sh*t so lets get something better as time is money'.

Nothing I have read in this thread makes me think 'rude' or 'beyond the mark', I just see someone attempting banter and people jumping straight back without understanding.  I agree that having been one of the first to join this forum I don't contribute as there are too many people quoting text book stuff that in reality doesn't help Jo Blogs at his club race.

GRF.......every forum should have one!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 09 at 5:15pm

If its any consilation I dont even know who Drug Lord is / was....so that aint me comparing.

Personally I have learned a lot of things from Phil's post, and granted without GRF's posts that probably wouldn't happen.

When GRF gets down to the nitty gritty by explanation rather than rant then it is very interesting, although sometimes direct comparisons from dinghy to windsurfers just doesn't work.

I have said what annoyed me, and it's no deeper than that.

I am sad that Doug H felt a PM would be better than broadcasting it without fear of taking sides.

The picture of the RS100 does indeed look interesting, but its going to perform differently to the D-One by virtue of the fact the sail area is going to be a lot smaller, and so the mast is going to act in a different way, as per their design choice. I am not saying that in a bad way, it doesn't matter how, just different.

You know when I came off the water on Sat, I remember thinking all these posts don't matter a single thing there is no doubt in my mind that RS100 sailors or D-One sailors will all come off the water with a bloody great grin on their faces.

If you want single handed asymetric hiking sailing, you are in for some of the best sailing of your life, that is assured.

Tim

 

Originally posted by turnturtle

Well at the risk of getting 'involved' again and being accused of having a commercial interest by the D-
One mob, I for one think that Grumpf's posts are in the main enlightening and after a couple of years
now I'm beginning to get the humour of the other contributions... it's a facade, underneath the dry wit is
a wealth of information that could be useful to the sailing industry if it were channelled right.

Ironically Graeme is just another consumer on this forum, but one with a lot of insight into the inner
workings of the industry and more to the point, how to work with online communities to promote
product- he's been doing it for years on Boards among others, so he knows a faux pas when he sees one!
Listen to him, don't listen- the choice is yours; but don't get defensive when his opinions, built upon years
of relevant, if not direct experience, don't cave at their first challenge.

Other industries use information from allied sources, it's even got a fancy name- it's called cross-
pollination. Graeme is right on so many levels- the sailing industry is so introverted it's a joke. It's
dressed up as a 'cottage industry' but the reality is the service is piss poor and if you dare to question
anything from the inner-sanctum you get called out and your personal credibility questioned for daring
to challenge their 'wisdom'. That's the reason I love RS's approach to the RS100- they have been open
with their customers, and to an extent, are turning the industry R&D on its head, albeit with the
limitations imposed by their component suppliers- why o' why didn't Hyde buy Proctor instead of letting
Selden get it? Why doesn't the North loft offer complete rigs like they do for Windsurfers? Why hasn't
Superspars been acquired and turned-around by a budding sail loft loaded with young south coast
talent? Surely it would make the boatbuilder's job a lot easier to put the whole rig design out to tender,
get three prototypes back from interested parties and chose the best on the water under an open test
with consumers? Then we'd all get our boats quicker and the builders would get a return quicker,
assuming that's what they're after rather than just an ego trip.


TimG- see GRF's inaugural thread below. You will see we have all tried to put the Grumpf back into his
box before, but funnily enough he always wriggles out and eventually some of us start listening and
questioning whether underneath the presumed venom and bite, there's actually a serum of truth.

http://tinyurl.com/grf1stpost

BTW- comparisons with Drug Lord... you are now being personally insulting; good job Graeme's
shoulders are at least metaphorically broad, besides he clearly has an in-depth knowledge beyond most
of us, has demonstrated experience in the field he professes to know about- windsurfing, not dinghy sailing
and he is at least willing to share it so we can opt to try it, rather than profit from it if he applied himself one
more time to take a hobby/sport into the professional arena. This place would be less colourful without him-
even the admin know it, otherwise why ban him and let him back in under a different username?

All this bullsh*t recently has had its casualties- where's Rick gone lately?   Let's not lose any more... even
my ol' mate grumpfs.



Edited by timg
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winging it View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 09 at 5:43pm
how about starting with the Battle of the Classes.....tacking up the docks,...all those shifts....but a guaranteed showcase.
the same, but different...

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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 09 at 5:46pm
Well don't you lot go getting all mushy on me now..

And where is Rick when you need him to set me straight?
I do hope he hasn't taken to purdah after the MO's expenses
issue)(Marketing for Ovington) I think the forum would be all the poorer
for his departure even if he does have my measure now and again.

Ironically I got my letter today re the RS100, it's decision time.. (If I'm to
avoid the VAT hike Jan 1st)

So a decision based on that one sail I almost forget, a bunch of pics and
the possibility of another go freezing my balls on Dec 5th or 6th.

Or take the chance that it is wide enough for my scrawny ass to cope with
off wind with a 12.5 kite and that big sail upwind, still if Hector can do
it...

Anyway rig schools out for now, time for home...

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