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So Whatever happened to..

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 10:00am
Originally posted by Rupert

2 classes, same size,both originally designed by the same person within 2 years of each other, but 10 years apart in first build, one a SMOD, one a restricted development class, same speed to begin with, but one much faster now. Somehow, they have sold in similar numbers, have followed a similar path in terms of growth and gentle decline from the hayday.
Longevity doesn't appear to be connected to design philosophy, at least in this case.

Just off the top of my head, do you mean the N12 and FF?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 10:17am
Boats like the Enterprise, GP14 and Solo (and the OK which I sailed back then) etc were cheap to acquire and maintain in the '60s, offered good racing at all levels had, generally, vice free handling in a wide range of conditions. High performance was covered by the Merlin and 505 and inveterate tinkers could sail a Moth or N12. (Yes I know there were/are loads of other classes). The reason that, say, the Ent is still popular is that it still has those qualities and is still as good as any modern design in it's niche. You are unlikely to find a 'better' boat for racing on a small pond on Wednesday evenings.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 10:33am
The problem here is comparing chalk and cheese - with current production levels outstripping competition and the vast back catalogue of after market boats, can we really compare the future of the globally accepted Laser dinghy with that of an old 20thC OD - or really even the latest offering for easy access sailing from RS... (despite how successfully it seems to be taking off at the moment)?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 10:33am
X1 and X0, in my opinion, needed to have the funds to put say 5-10 boats into places like Ranelagh, Queen Mary or Wembley. Two locations where interested parties could go to sail them, race them and cave in to temptation and buy. Good boats for restricted waters, decent leg room and carrying capacity and I would have thought, capability to cruise as well as race, ala Wayfarers and GP's. Great for many lakes, rivers and estuaries of these British Isles where I'm sure there are folks struggling to sail perfectly decent but thoroughly unsuitable assy 'skiffs' from big brands. I have no idea about the folks behind it and I'm sure raising cash for such projects is a nightmare, but I think the tangent which opened up above regarding the D-Zero and Aero* shows the need for a well-funded, commercially adept concern to be fully behind any new entry.

In the future, the success of new entries for the double-hander would do well to think about how they can acheive some kind of localised critical mass. Funding to build 15 or 20 boats as demonstrators would be hard to raise, but its difficult to see how you can get racing and buzz going with just one or two demonstrators. You quickly fall foul (or are open to) the vagaries of the handicap system. IMO there's a need to establish 'fleets' in a strong demographic, say London/Kent/Essex/Hants and 'implant' two or three groups of boats in clubs within say 20-30 miles of each other** to quickly get traction.

Lastly, for me, the choice of open sail makers with supplied hull, foils and spars, really opens up a class for quick growth by encouraging sailors and vendors to get more involved in the set up and racing of their boats without the 'open-season' of a 'deepest-wallet-wins' full development class.

The 2000 class and continuing popularity of the 200, 400, FB and 800 show there is a good market for double-handers still. Plus the MR and N12 endure and provide those with the cash a great sailing reward.

*I really like these and its great to see it so popular so fast, the modern materials and rig choices are great plus points

**so you can organise open meetings in year 1 and have people mix from different clubs, creating more of a 'class' feel quicker

Edited by getafix - 29 Aug 18 at 10:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 12:20pm
I'm wary of judging the existence, or otherwise, of old local ODs from PY returns. Down here in S Devon there are reasonably active fleets of both Salcombe and Devon Yawls, but neither appear in the PY lists, because they are nearly always sailed in class fleets. I'd be surprised if the same isn't the case with other local ODs, that continue to be actively sailed in local class fleets.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by PeterG

I'm wary of judging the existence, or otherwise, of old local ODs from PY returns. Down here in S Devon there are reasonably active fleets of both Salcombe and Devon Yawls, but neither appear in the PY lists, because they are nearly always sailed in class fleets. I'd be surprised if the same isn't the case with other local ODs, that continue to be actively sailed in local class fleets.

Very true.

But we're also mixing up discussion of boats still in existence, boats actively raced, and new boats sold.
Some old-established fleets are quite active on the water despite a very low rate of new builds.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by getafix



In the future, the success of new entries for the double-hander would do well to think about how they can acheive some kind of localised critical mass. Funding to build 15 or 20 boats as demonstrators would be hard to raise, but its difficult to see how you can get racing and buzz going with just one or two demonstrators. You quickly fall foul (or are open to) the vagaries of the handicap system. IMO there's a need to establish 'fleets' in a strong demographic, say London/Kent/Essex/Hants and 'implant' two or three groups of boats in clubs within say 20-30 miles of each other** to quickly get traction.

Lastly, for me, the choice of open sail makers with supplied hull, foils and spars, really opens up a class for quick growth by encouraging sailors and vendors to get more involved in the set up and racing of their boats without the 'open-season' of a 'deepest-wallet-wins' full development class.

I like this as an idea, to build new classes away from the larger commercial producers, the model of local one (open/restricted) designs being created by a club(s) could work once again, maybe more so if the clubs were to be financially involved in a pay and play basis.  Biggest problem is building consensus to adopt a design though which means the clubs need to talk to each other more.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 2:34pm
Not sure that I can spot the gap in the market for a new class ... whoever is to build or market it ... any ideas?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Not sure that I can spot the gap in the market for a new class ... whoever is to build or market it ... any ideas?


An ultra-light, high quality two hander, modern rig, optimised to be easy to sail by people who are no longer willing to crouch in the bottom of the boat in light air?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Not sure that I can spot the gap in the market for a new class ... whoever is to build or market it ... any ideas?

Well you know my answer David! Found it interesting that for much of this thread it has been a comparison of the D0 and Aero to the Laser which is actually a fair comparison in my mind in terms of the size and shape of the people that would be drawn to sail such a boat.

In my mind the H2 never set out to compete with a Laser in a way that the D0 and Aero have because it is aimed more at people that would have been thinking about a Blaze, Finn, Phantom etc because they would sink a Laser but want a more modern design / weight in a package that is comfy to sail and still goes well.

Is that a niche - not really sure, but sales seem to be doing pretty well for an Indy boat maker. We are six of them at South Cerney now and a nice little fleet emerging and 20+ boats booked onto the national at Herne Bay in a weeks time.

Edit: not sure that the H2 would ever really put itself forward as an Olympic contender  LOL


Edited by H2 - 29 Aug 18 at 3:29pm
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