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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Boat Performance Index
    Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 9:09am
Well under my system if the Halo kept winning in Group 7 it would just get kicked up into group 6, same with the Aero 9, chances are there would be events for Groups 6 & 7 anyway so it wouldn't stop folk showing up, decimating a class like they have the Phantoms.
The other way you could limit it would be using weight groups as Boards do, rough rule of thumb sail size in sq mtr no more than a factor of ten times body weight which it pretty much is now anyway if you think about it. 95 kgs = 9.5sq mrs, 85kgs = 8.5sq mrs 75kgs = 7,5 sq mtrs and so forth.

Folk coming in to the sport need that sort of guidance anyway even though some of us choose to ignore it, the fact is, give or take, if you're looking at one size does it all they are your limits anyway with a stayed rig that doesn't depower too well.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Woodburner

Well under my system if the Halo kept winning in Group 7 it would just get kicked up into group 6

would it.... typical drifter evening inland conditions.  A 75kg rocket racoon puts one up and creams everyone, he'd have done the same in a new Phantom.  The poor 120kg buggers who'd struggle to move from one side to the other without sweating still find they're down the pan.... as you'd expect in light winds.  

Do they have to move into the category up just because Skinny Pete is pot hunting?  



Edited by turnturtle - 19 Mar 15 at 9:38am
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 10:01am
But skinny Pete is not so skinny....


Paul
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 10:21am
Yo homies, y'all need to catch up, word. That Skinny Pete was so 2003 bitches.

Edited by turnturtle - 19 Mar 15 at 10:21am
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 10:42am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Yo homies, y'all need to catch up, word. That Skinny Pete was so 2003 bitches.

He has done a Turnturtle style Slimming World transformation then......
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 10:43am
In the USA, most yachts race under PHRF which is not a band system, but it's one where committees sit in rooms and decide handicaps without the statistical database that PY has.

Anyone who reckons that causes less controversy should read up on US PHRF for a while. SA is a good place to start, but it just keeps on going.  There was even a "how to buy a cheater PHRF boat" article in Sailing World years back.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 10:44am
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by turnturtle

Yo homies, y'all need to catch up, word. That Skinny Pete was so 2003 bitches.

He has done a Turnturtle style Slimming World transformation then......

or a sh*t load of meth.
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Woodburner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 10:48am
Weight doesn't make much difference in drifters, it only really cuts in once there is some sort of power being supplied, then things like planing threshold or fast displacement in the case of dinghies apply.

That Halo rig as i recall was introduced to try and stem the flow of heavy guys out of the Blaze into Phantoms, it was going on about the time I bought my Blaze, funnily enough from a guy buying a Phantom he was a big unit.

But those two boats get their speed advantage when they do get it for two entirely separate reasons and I was never convinced uplifting the sail size on the Blaze hull was ever going to do it for anything other than big guys in breeze.

All of which is entirely irrelevant to the discussion other than it enforces the point that Blaze & Phantom both have the same potential it just occurs due to different circumstances and the way the current yardstick applies, it's just one circumstance that gets reported more than the other for all the reasons we've discussed over the years although quite how the morons have managed to come up with 975 for a kite less single hander is beyond me and just a further indication of how out of touch or just plain stupid they have become.


Edited by Woodburner - 19 Mar 15 at 11:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 12:33pm

The whole point being made, (apart from a bit of teasing !) is that the PN system does not and cannot adequately measure boat potential the way it is ..... 

The guy or guys who choose for whatever reason NOT to race on a particular day in a particular boat also has an impact on the aggregate figures - 'He' or 'they' could drive it 'up' or 'down' simply by absence.   Is this really the sort of logic that should partly underpin handicap sailing in this millenium ?  I'm sure most of you can find other examples of sampling related issues not managed that well.  Are the RYA really not prepared to apply or consider or, heaven help us all, capable of a more sophisticated approach ?  

Like it or not handicap racing is a major part of racing today.  'Pure' fleet racing is a minority pastime albeit many of us do regard it as the ideal and still attend major class opens and championships.   Handicap therefore is here to stay but has outgrown the 'fairness' of a 1950's methodology ... even with the tinkering and tinsel additions at the edges of recent years.  Originally it got the 'back of the boat park' fleet in their menagerie of 'non-adopted' classes at clubs involved a couple of times a year for a bit of fun.  No problem with that.   But can you really stretch or even reform the same system to deal with the modern scenario of large handicap fleets often sailed by highly 'competitive' individuals and fleets in many classes?  The sampling model that underpins everything has the claimed advantage of being 'simple' ... but that is about it really !   'Simple' invariably produces simplistic numbers.  All the time this approach conspires to ignore the real potential of all classes .... with the implied and occasionally explicit justification that you cannot really improve things in the background.  

The RYA (and to some extent Great Lakes) handicappers are not to be envied.  But the importance to the modern age and future of dinghy racing of what they 'do' has risen greatly.   I personally lean more towards the GL approach as it does produce good multi-class racing and attract good examples in most classes that get involved and this can be critically important.  Their sampling is smaller but more factor specific and related.   Heck it is now the 'default' handicap system around outside 'regular' club racing.   Regular club sampling in contrast is highly variable, patchy in its make-up, and can require the use of 'pressure' on many clubs that frankly don't need it every year !    Local club handicap racing imo is far far less indicative of underlying and inherent boat capability than is now needed.  Compared with the smaller sample available from the 'major' handicap events as run under the Sailjuice banner and beyond it really is less indicative. 

'Weighing' the sample and ignoring the 'quality' and source of the bulk of the data involved does nobody much good in the long run.  

Want to have a play with the figures out of curiosity without getting too tangled up in it   ?  You could start by looking at the delta between GL and ‘official’ PN numbers across a range of classes.  Many seem to be  growing  .... !  

Anyway - only my opinion and I'm sure this one will go on for some time ... and on and on again  LOL

Mike L.   


    
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by blaze720

Put it on a regular Blaze and that extra metre of sail and it now means -46 points   Wink    ..... got to be right has'nt it ?!  RYA says so ... and everyone else from clubs who have had Halo's for years to the very capable SJ series folk are plainly wrong.....  

Of course it could be that the clubs that have all those years of experience just haven't adjusted their number locally and see no need, and the actual returns they send in spit out the new rya number.  

Have you asked those clubs what the pys site shows as the potential adjusted halo number?

let us know what you find out when you have.
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