Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Blaze vs Laser Comparison |
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G.R.F. ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 12 Nov 11 at 4:49pm |
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bert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Apr 05 Location: norwich usually Online Status: Offline Posts: 584 |
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The thing is GRF " sure we benefitted" just because in your case it made no difference in your opinion doesn’t mean the reasoning is flawed for the direction the class wants to go. To be honest if the class didn`t do it I would not have brought a blaze old or new because the next upgrade would have halved the value of my boat so I would have brought a laser then hated that & left sailing. I agree that making the boat more weighy then the class rules require is idiotic but to make the playing field level for ALL boats makes sense, after all that’s what the PY system tries to do but between class`s rather then with in a class. |
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Phantom 1181
AC-227 IC 304 blaze / halo 586 |
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G.R.F. ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
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Then every body who gets in them should be made to be the same weight if you follow that logic.
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blaze720 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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The bottom line is that in the UK we have plenty of choice:
1) Laser or RS type SMOD - very tight rules 2) Like our Blaze/Icon - still SMOD but some flexibility in terms of set-up,sheeting systems etc 3) 'One-Design' within tolerences administered by CA or similar org - Phantom, Finn, 505 et al 4) Development classes - N12, I14, MR, Int-Moth etc 5) One-Off's .... built when the owner still .... er cannot find what he/she wants, bears the full cost of development and enjoys the challenge of seeing if their ideas really work. Greame is currently following the last direction and most of us wish him luck - always good to have the odd maverick out there to question convention and explore new directions and they should be encouraged. (Might have to think about that one a bit longer but am in a good mood dinghy wise at the moment ;-). However for the very vast majority of the market there is already a 'formula' out there that suits them. Managed innovation is good but most really do not want to be completely at the bleeding edge of development... they want good racing and they want it at a reasonable price. The over-rapid churning of product and rules in the board market eventually killed it as a popular racing sailing formula a while back imho. Development was very rapid, way beyond what happens in even the dinghy development classes and got too expensive for the mass of punters by the early 90's. Then when 'they' allowed unlimited pumping in addition to the constant product developments it just got too much for many of us - and we simply went back to dinghies if we stayed sailing at all. Let dinghies develop of course but lets not go down that particular dead-end. Just my take on it .... Each to their own though .... Mike L. Edited by blaze720 - 12 Nov 11 at 9:36pm |
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........anyone?
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blaze720 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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OK .... GK
It started originally at 1040 when launched but was moved within a few years to 1047 based on club returns. Since then it has been marginally moved back to 1046 and now enjoys a 'Secondary Yardstick' ... in other words enough clubs have put in returns for enough years so that there is reasonable confidence over the number...... check out the PY scheme. Your interest in this hardly secret history is ? Mike L. |
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G.R.F. ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
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Well ironically it wasn't weight that killed windsurfing as a regatta competition sport and it could still be argued sailboards still today outstrip sales of dinghies, they still attract way bigger numbers at their championships than everything other than oppies. No it's the lack of take up at club level and the lack of local organisation and the reluctance to accept boards racing that didn't help, and the natural resistance to 'organisation and discipline' that sailors tolerate and that the act of just sailing them is exhilarating enough in its own right. Windsurfing isn't dead it just gets carried on in different environments. Board weights for racing are or were restricted to 18kgs what ruined the most successful class was the move to unlimited rig size as against the one size fits all 7.5 that enjoyed over 2000 members of the class up until the mid nineties. You're wrong about this weight thing, but then like any class association in the history of time, ask them if they want to change they'll say no. Change has to be forced upon them for their own good of course and for the financial benefit of the product builder, or hadn't you spotted why noone builds new race boats any more.
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blaze720 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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Greame ....
But they do buy new race boats ... not thousands though of course ! Forcing change though on owners can kill off any formula/class if not done with care. You can lead them forward of course but their cheque books have to follow - if they do not you will kill off your business and possibly a successful class. Can agree with you on the need to evolve but not on the speed. .... agree with you about board sails 7.5m size and Div1 / funboard was great in its day but it got dumped on by morons imo along with the changes to 'regular' pumping rules. Olympic board sailing is today the most demanding sport physically because competitors are forced into repetitive 'vertical press-ups' - Bloody crazy and no more than wind rowing ... tell you what why not skip the sailing stuff and just get them to use C-2's on shore until there is only one left standing ... or at least still able to movre It alienated 95% of regular racers over a 5 year period and killed one of the best 'mass' sports out-there. Running really really is more fun ... Now I wish I'd stayed sailing Dinghies over that 15 year period ... enjoyed it at the time though. Mike L. |
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Just interested in finding an answer to the OP's question and I couldn't find the old Blaze number by googling.......I asked because I didn't know.
So, please correct me if I'm wrong: Over the years of development there hasn't been any corresponding significant changes in the PY apart from a 7 point alteration during the MK1 years. The new weight accurate Blazes are considerably lighter than the Mk 1's and 2's for class measurement purposes and all up (with sails and boom etc.) they are even lighter...... by as much as 15%? (at a conservative guess, you know the figures Mike) + all the other improvements from 2001 onwards.
I checked out the PY system in depth some while ago and realised that old boats revamped quite often make a mockery of the numbers, at least until they get caught up with. Also it seems the numbers only get changed when sufficient clubs suggest a change, given the conservative nature of most clubs (reluctance to tamper with the published numbers) changes can take years to filter through. Many clubs, including mine, do not do enough to sort the issue out........even the primary numbers should be taken with a pinch of salt, there is at least one old class in this category that has been modernised recently and it'll probably get a haircut in 5 yrs or so.
so.........perhaps a new category is needed for any boats being revamped, Say: PY, RY, SN and IY (investigated Yardstick) with an advisory note saying "watch the new ones in this class closely".
There are other reasons a boat can get a generous number i.e. standard of sailing in that class, insufficient number of returns to make any sense of, etc....... The issue of "improved boats" should be the easiest one to deal with though.
........I have no beef with any of these "improved classes" and best of luck to all who sail them, it's the PY system that's shot. Lets's hope the new returns system sort's it out. Edited by GK.LaserII - 13 Nov 11 at 12:38pm |
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blaze720 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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The 'revamp' .. er in fact reduced the sail size but the boat became a pleaseure to sail whereas the original fully battened 'big' rig was a right B*****d. Blaze hulls are still out of the same original tool today, the spars are identical etc etc...
Sorry to disappoint but when new the older hulls were at or very near the minimum weight but some have inevitably put on a bit of weight over the years. The only difference today is we build in epoxy and can hit minimum weight all the time AND new owners can pretty much assured they will stay that way - that is the difference between polyester and vinylester/epoxy. If this 'levelled playing field' was any different how would you explain that for the last 2 years our National Champion has sailed a well sorted polyester boat to win ! Now if you are really saying it is possible to beat a PN in the Blaze I will say to you - Yes of course ! 50% of us will do that.... for at least some of the time. It is an AVERAGE nothing more. If you put a reasonable helm in most classes they should be able to beat the average for much of the time. All it proves is that the PN system works but it is nothing more than a crude average, do not expect it to make up for anything else. If you are a poor helm you will not be able to sail most classes including your own to the current PN. BTW - HISC rates the Blaze as slower than the current 'secondary yardstick' at 1051 ... so pray tell me where and what do you sail that allows the local Blazes to possibly **** on you ! ;-) ...or why not come along and try a Blaze ... seriosly we are always happy to let anyone try one virtually anytime. Just PM me or contact the CA. Mike L. |
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