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sargesail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: LEE BOW EFFECT
    Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by sargesail

No it doesn't!  The apparent wind is a combination of a moving volume of air (True or Ground wind) and a moving carpet (OK volume but in practice it's 2D) of tide (the tidal wind), and your boat speed and your angle to the wind (I'll call it induced wind).   Pinching or footing changes the induced wind but it can not change the tidal wind.



dude.. sailing 101.

True wind generates movement.
Movement generates "created wind" opposite to movement direction
Both True and Created combined = Apparent wind.


So
Favorable tide on lee bow increases apparent wind by increased vector pressure on true wind
Tide on weather bow decreases apparent wind inversely.

Edited for accuracy..

Dude - more accurate but still wrong.  

I wish we were drinking beer so that we could karate sail this or use tablecloths and or napkins to show the moving carpet effect of the tide.  Thus allowing me to prove to my satisfaction, but probably not yours (I was a persistent heretic once too) that the angle of the boat's motion to the tide is irrelevant in determining the "vector pressure".

Try it this way: it would be more accurate to say apparent (the wind felt by the boat) wind generates motion, but for a boat at rest movement generated wind is nil.

Now let's stop the boat from being at rest by adding some tide.  That creates a new wind which is a constant input to our equation.

Now when we take the brakes off no matter what direction and speed we sail at the true wind and tidal input to the forces we experience has not changed.  We can not generate increased pressure by taking the tide on our lee bow, or less by taking it on our weather bow.

Anybody else with me?
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 11 at 10:58pm
Dude you use the tablecloths

I'll stick to the experience of thirty five years and countless victories gained sailing in tides of all different descriptions and directions in all manner of craft.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 7:02am
I think the best way to have this debate is to drop the term "lee bow effect" all together. As concluded earlier different people are using it to mean different things, so we are arguing at crossed purposes. The question I think we debating is can the tide have an effect on your apparent wind?

I'm of the camp definitely yes. Simple geometry can demonstrate it by saying: if you have East going tide of 5 knots with a westerly wind of 10 knots (so both in the same direction) and you are floating (pointing north for arguments sake) and stationary in the water, how much wind do you feel? Answer should be 5 knots. If the tide turns and you have a 5 knot west going tide against the wind you will feel 15 knots of wind.

As you are not moving through the water do you call this apparent wind? Doesn't matter really, because in the same situation with a moving boat the tide is making a difference for the same reason as above. The difference will be less because of apparent wind due to boat speed. Now you can take this further by saying as long as their is a component of tide against the wind and it is pushing from the leeward side of the boat you will get some lift towards the wind.

Can we agree on that?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 7:42am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Dude you use the tablecloths

I'll stick to the experience of thirty five years and countless victories gained sailing in tides of all different descriptions and directions in all manner of craft.

While I might not be a God like figure of the early days of windsurfing I have a few wins myself - some of which I have attributed to lee bow effect.  But I have seen the error of my ways....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 7:44am


I'm of the camp definitely yes. Simple geometry can demonstrate it by saying: if you have East going tide of 5 knots with a westerly wind of 10 knots (so both in the same direction) and you are floating (pointing north for arguments sake) and stationary in the water, how much wind do you feel? Answer should be 5 knots. If the tide turns and you have a 5 knot west going tide against the wind you will feel 15 knots of wind.

As you are not moving through the water do you call this apparent wind? Doesn't matter really, because in the same situation with a moving boat the tide is making a difference for the same reason as above. The difference will be less because of apparent wind due to boat speed. Now you can take this further by saying as long as their is a component of tide against the wind and it is pushing from the leeward side of the boat you will get some lift towards the wind.

Can we agree on that?


[/QUOTE]

You will get pushed towards the wind - yes.

But can we agree that that push is the same no matter where the boat is pointing?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pierre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 8:56am
Still no pictures I see....
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bert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 10:21am
so for this to have any effect the wind & tide have to be at diffent angles to each other.
correct? or Not?
May be a couple of people who understand this effect & would be willing to write a summary for the mag & these would be considered to be publised. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 10:46am
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the Inlands this weekend... LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian29937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 11:00am
A wonderfull rambling thread as usual. 
 
The question is not whether the tide has an impact on the apparent wind as clearly it will.  The question is whether or not pinching to shift from "tide on the windward bow" to "tide on the leeward bow" mode works or not. 
 
The theorists say no, some people say experience indicates yes.
 
I've certainly been overtaken whilst trying to pinch up and gain a leebow effect by people sailing normally to the true apparent wind so my experience dictates that the academics are correct.  Smile
 
Ian
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 11 at 11:11am
Originally posted by sargesail




But can we agree that that push is the same no matter where the boat is pointing?

No, we can't agree on that either.

If it were a boat with no means of propulsion then yes we could agree with your 'theory'

But it isn't, it's a sailboat with two sets of foils set in a plane at the conjunction of two 'fluids' moving in different directions.

If the fluids were both moving in the same direction, then yes the push would be the same no matter where the boat was pointing.

But the moment you introduce a means of resistance against either fluid force, then that produces an equal and opposite response <insert all sorts of maths and physics bollox>

Now come on, you must see the sense of this...


In all seriousness here for a second and joking and banter aside, have there been no books or lectures or videos about sailing in tide, tidal currents, waves fast and slow, how to spot them all this stuff we're bantering about here? I can't believe over the years somebody hasn't already detailed it, somebody y'all might actually believe that is.. I bet if my name was Bethwaite y'all would be going ooh ahh it must be true then...


Edited by G.R.F. - 13 Oct 11 at 11:12am
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