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    Posted: 03 Jun 10 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by hum3

Originally posted by GybeFunny

I never fully understood why the 200 went double patch...

...Getting back on topic the 200 kite change was early on in its life which means fewer boats were 'outclassed', the same cant be said for the 400.

The main reasons were to protect the kite better

That was an additional benefit but not the main reason ...
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Posts: 1 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Anne779 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 10 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by turnturtle

except the guy who bought them is supporting counterfeiting and clearly
does not understand the bigger picture or respect for the fellow competitors
who are prepared to pay for the genuine article to keep things fair on the
race course and depreciation low in the classifieds... perhaps he should have
sold the 400 and bought a Merlin, that way he could have had free choice
over his sailmaker.

The photo is taken in a handicap event. By buying that main and selling an older one to another boat, another boat was made competitive in our handicap fleet for sensible money. If he sold his RS, that would reduce the value of the others on the market (one more boat for sale) and an also reduce the value the rest of the fleet gets from racing against him. As it is, the 400 is the thing to have for level racing within our handicap fleet. Reducing the 400's by one might damage the critical mass.

At least he's an association member, as for the other two....

 

779 is an association member
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Posts: 584 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 10 at 7:30pm


Morning TT

"If it were that simple then there would be no need to be so brazen about
it... What the f*ck is that stupid chicken doing on the sail if it's not making a
pointed statement?" 

Personly I think that the big chicken`s statment is "I am a training sail NOT for class events" & by putting the big stupid chichen on the sail there is NO hidding the fact that the sail is NOT class legal.

Also the sail has NO class insigia

 



Edited by bert
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 10 at 7:39pm
Either that or a great big advertisment. Either way, it makes things easier for the RO than trying to spot fake Laser sails.
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Posts: 3169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 10 at 8:33pm
Is rocking and rolling playing fair? It's certainly
supposed to be self policed, which seems to turn into a
witch hunt. Rule 42 infringement pisses me off a load more
then a chicken on the sail!
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Posts: 584 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 10 at 8:39pm

"Bert- the photo was taken from a race, not a training session mate.
Okay not a 'class event', but still a bonafide race under ISAF's RRS.-- this I think comes down to the club as to weather they will allow non class legal sails at club level after all sailing members are active members. 
It's clearly advertising, and agressive advertising too. The Laser
ripoff 'i-sail' is far more discreet, not that I agree with that
either,". - Actually I quite like the idea that the person sailing with rooster sails are forced to be blatant about it rather then "trying" to hide with a small label."but subtley really wouldn`t go a miss when flouting the rules" -- rules are there for a level playing field but the following post stated that these sails were around for quite a while & have NO performance advantage - so while I agree with you that replica sails are not good for the SMOD it has allowed this boat & possibly others to continue to race AT THEIR HOME CLUB in a competive boat.

At the end of the day I would perfer to race against more boats on a level playing feild then NO boats on a legally level playing field. 

Afterall I also sail a harrier+ which is a harrier 1974ish slow,heavy,under powered, rubbish foils but when a phanton rig & foils are fitted the boat becomes good fun,It don`t have a CA & sails off a laser PY but it is on the water & is mid fleet fun but I will get sails & foils from where I can & continue to enjoy it -- in all honesty the whole boat is counterfeit, well the heavy hull isn`t but everything else is, good fun though.
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Posts: 377 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamesd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 10 at 7:35am
Being a 400 sailor with a "stupid chicken" on the sail i feel i must say
something here.
I see no reason why people should not use replica sails. Obviously at
events then thats fair play, but for handicap racing at a club or even fleet
sailing at a club i see no issue. as long as everyone consents to it then i
see no wrong. Im not trying to slate LDC, but the class sails by hyde are
expensive and they do not last as long. We all know the difference a new
suit of sails costs, but some just cannot afford to keep spending out
serious sums of cash for a not so serious club race. I think replica sails
make competitive racing to everyone.
i do not have replica 400 sails, but i do laser sails.

As for slating the logo James, i would have thought better of you. You
always are pretty fair with your comments.
I think it does show that it is a blatant replica unlike some of these laser
sails which even have the class insignia on them. Ok Steve is probably
using it as advertisement, which is fair enough i think.
Rooster sailing is not a massive company and has a very limited market in
the sailing world so any help they can get i believe they should take.
Rooster have done alot for dinghy sailing in the UK and also the rest of
the world. Steve writes some good articles and will happily help people
with their sailing. Plus The kit they produce is VERY good and im not
saying that because im biased, it well thought out, well developed and is
a very reasonable price. You only have to look at the other companies
that copy them and their products, take mustos fleece aqua or whatever
its called, its identical to the legendary aqua fleece.
I just think there is a oppi/topper image associated with the rooster logo
and everyone puts it down but in reality they just targeted a market that is
likely to follow like sheep and sell products. a good business move in my
opinion
James
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 10 at 10:27am
Originally posted by turnturtle

but it is imo a daft logo and I am not alone in steering well clear of it on any sailing apparel.

Oh I dunno, the whole Cockerell/Rooster/Chicken name/logo thing is gently amusing and displays something of a sense of humour and proportion that's all too rare in this spin driven world...

Can you imagine any of our politicians punning on their names like that? I can't, and I can think of no finer justification!

Actually I don't particularly object to the guys making replica sails, provided they are honest about it: I have a friend who makes extra long lived sails for sailing schools for instance and see nothing wrong with that. What I object to is people racing with them in SMOD classes.



Edited by JimC
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 10 at 10:39am

TT, I think your calculations of return on investment for sail development are completlely false.

The NRE is paid for in the first hundred boats off the line, then the sails are sold for whatever the manufacturer cares to price them at.

With no replica sails, manufacturers would always up the prices a little more. You only have to look at what laser sails cost 20 years ago when there were a lot less alternatives, compared to a sail of similar complexity. Compare the price of a 400 jib with a Merlin jib for instance.

I think the present balance works well.

Also, people spending money on older boats is good for the class. One of the small issues I have with the RS400 is there are not many usable secondhand sails on the market, compared with say Merlins, but on the whole, we have great racing at grass roots level at very reasonable cost. You have to look at the whole picture, and the big picture is good.
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Posts: 3169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 10 at 10:53am

One of the reasons the EU, implemented block exemption rules I the automotive industry, was to stop Manufacturers tying consumers into servicing their vehicles at main agents, to validate warranties.  The dealers were then charging stupid rates for basic service work.  Since this has been introduced, the cost of main dealer servicing has dropped.

I am with TT however; you know what you’re buying into when you purchase an RS, Laser etc.  Its one of the reasons I choose not to anymore.  I can however see why people are buying replicas.  The cost of RS sails across the range is mental, sure they last well but they are still grossly over priced.  Especially if you compare quality and price against a class like Merlins. 

 
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