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    Posted: 03 Oct 15 at 7:32pm
I don't think anyone would disagree with those sentiments, but buying 20 yo lasers and fitting them out with replica sails is not a healthy, sustainable future. Participants need to fund the sport they play. As tempting as joining in for (virtually) free is, if you don't support the class it won't be able to continue and certainly won't adapt to your needs.

I'm not saying everyone should buy new, but a class culture of avoiding paying throughout proper channels is a bit Greek. Don't pay your taxes and expect someone else to keep you in the manner to which you have become accustomed.
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 15 at 9:51pm
It's a sliding scale,
At grass roots it's as close to free as it will ever get.
Through to regional circuit where folk are buying good 2nd hand boats, replica sails for the club and a genuine that just comes out for the opens.
Then the good guys who commit everything to the national circuit at which level a new sail every year and a new boat every 4 years is small beer against the bigger campaign costs.

Isn't that how it should be?
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 15 at 9:55pm
Peaky you're forgetting it's not a normal market - there's literally hundreds of boats filtered down into the second hand market through the steady stream of youth sailing, olympic and squad stuff and the equipment supplied regattas.  Sorry, but it's a simple fact that the dice are loaded against anything else...

I think the future of the Laser is quite healthy actually.  The sail is long overdue admittedly, but it will make a modest improvement that I know I genuinely hope to welcome.  Whether it's 'good for the sport', I've long since worried caring...  it's a simple boat, there's others to sail against and sure, it sucks compared to something newer, but nothing really comes close to the ease of ownership and the quality of the racing on my doorstep.  
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 15 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by piglet

Isn't that how it should be?

no we should all remortgage our properties and leverage ourselves to the tune of 8 grand to get something that goes half a knot quicker upwind and will probably fall apart in five years....  Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 15 at 10:03pm
That top down approach works for many classes, but the Laser has traditionally been different. It built its popularity from the bottom up, and was supported at all levels. There is not enough elite Laser sailing to support the large base. If the sailors don't care about the class, the class won't care about the sailors. It's no wonder the Solo (and Aero?) are killing the Laser as a club boat - the CA's and sailors are much more aligned.
Anyway, too depressed to care about that. Suffice to say the sailors will get the class they deserve if they don't support it.
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Posts: 240 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiiiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 15 at 11:03pm
I suppose it is fine if the 'fakers' just copy sails to make them cheaper. We have them on our club owned boats but what if those repro sails are of improved designs and are faster. How would we feel then?

By the way, nicely run race last week Peaky, it was you wasn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 15 at 11:19pm
Thanks Mr Tickle. I was really impressed with the Bytes, and they are very photogenic. I guess the radial is its arch nemesis.
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 15 at 8:26am
Originally posted by Peaky

That top down approach works for many classes, but the Laser has traditionally been different. It built its popularity from the bottom up, and was supported at all levels. There is not enough elite Laser sailing to support the large base. If the sailors don't care about the class, the class won't care about the sailors. It's no wonder the Solo (and Aero?) are killing the Laser as a club boat - the CA's and sailors are much more aligned.
Anyway, too depressed to care about that. Suffice to say the sailors will get the class they deserve if they don't support it.


What's the alternative? A proliferation of 'perfect boats' and some nonsensical system to assess who won? No thanks...

At least we have consensus with the Laser, and it's our largest growing fleet around here, and doing pretty good at Rutland and Oxford too by many accounts.
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 15 at 9:32am
I don't think anyone would disagree with those sentiments, but buying 20 yo lasers and fitting them out with replica sails is not a healthy, sustainable future. Participants need to fund the sport they play. As tempting as joining in for (virtually) free is, if you don't support the class it won't be able to continue and certainly won't adapt to your needs. 

But that's a small part of the story, and misses the point. The entry level costs of Laser sailing are very low. It's easy for someone who's new to sailing to pick up an old one and join in class racing at club level. That's good for the class for all sorts of reasons. Firstly more boats on the water makes the racing better for everyone, even those with shiny new kit nearer the front of the fleet. Also because those trying out class racing with clunky old kit find it more enjoyable racing in a decent sized fleet that with a one or two similar boats. And because they enjoy it more they sail more, and soon enough that 20 year old Laser isn't good enough and they go out and buy something newer, or new. And then they want to have a go in the open at the club down the coast, and they're  off to buy a new official sail.

The fact that entry costs are low, and that includes replicas, is exactly why the class is so successful., and remains so.



Edited by PeterG - 04 Oct 15 at 3:55pm
Peter
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 15 at 1:32pm
I don't know and I don't really care, it's not a boat I sail. To an extent I'm just playing devil's advocate, but I think the situation you describe is not necessarily borne out in reality. Is it only newcomers using replica sails and not joining the Laser class association? Not in my experience.

I do get the point that it's not worth spending £400 on a sail if the boat is only worth £200, but replica sails are endemic in Lasers, not restricted to rookies. The Solo is, in many respects, a worse boat than the Laser (although better quality). However it is in rude health, not because of the boat itself, but because the class association and sailors mutually benefit each other.
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