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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Boat Performance Index
    Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 9:08pm
Rooster 8.1 1040
Laser (7.1) 1091
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 9:16pm
I guess it would depend upon the hull the extra sail area was put on. Was it a little underpowered in average conditions? Does the extra area mean spilling wind in a force 2?

Or possibly the bigger rig is only used in the light stuff? In which case expect the British Moth effect to come into play - a handicap that only works in the conditions that returns were made.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 9:18pm
Yep 47 points or whatever is too big a jump for rooster 8.1 and even HALO, but thats what happens when sailors rig swap to gain advantage across the wind range on PY. They never get their arses felt in decent breeze which would bring the PY back to where it should be - maybe 20pts, all things being equal. The lord giveth and the lord taketh away!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 9:34pm
Well, all interesting posts and thinking about the handicapping issue, what comes to me is that we lack  accurate enough performance data.

Netflix manager on R4 this afternoon explained that they can almost predict what sort of new titles will be successful because they have so much data to look at.

Can we not do the same for dinghy racing. All the olympic boats have GPS trackers on them.

Given the money would it be possible to put trackers on a wide range of boats from all the interested classes, maybe a hundred of each class, log all their movements over a season and then some clever person can work out the handicap for the next year for each class.

I believe cyclists do this sort of thing, uploading their ride data for others to look at.

As people get more and more competitve and the differences become more difficult to quantify data from clubs may just not be useful enough.

I'd love there to be a simple solution but there isn't one; but if there is enough real boat performance data them an answer may be posssible
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 9:58pm
Unless you plan to use the data to somehow change the handicap as the conditions change as boats sail round the course, I'm not sure how it helps more than the timings do. What we need are more returns, and maybe a magic way of sorting the data so all the anomalies disappear.

It would be a great exercise to do to see how different boats behave, though, and where distance is lost in different classes.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 10:51pm
It's worth remembering that a Speedpuck has a claimed accuracy of +/- 0.2kts. That's +/- 20 PY points for a boat that has a PY of 1000. The difference between a class with a PY of 1000 and one with a PY of 1010 simply isn't measurable with (affordable) GPS.

I like Graeme's idea. The dilemna of too many classes but wanting freedom of choice is surely best solved by encouraging classes to amalgamate, either loosely like this idea or more tightly under formula classes.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 15 at 11:55pm
We've got plenty of Halo racing results going back several seasons.  And no - the regulars do use them exclusively in all conditons thank-you.  After all they really do tend to be the larger guys after all - not many lightweights choose them anyway.  Many Clubs are very used to them, and it is not a first season for the Halo rig by several years.  Speculations on this forum regarding 'multi-rig' use are largely just that ... supposition and speculation.  In some classes many individuals don't sail at all in 'too heavy' or 'too light' conditons anyway which potentially makes just as much impact on the sample reliability anyway.  We regularly see it at our club and I dare say you see it at yours as well.

It has been suggested and we are now in the process of formally writing to the RYA enquiring about the sampling selection and size they actually used in producing their first Halo EN as they appear so far away from either the GL numbers or Halo club results that have been around for much longer  ... perhaps Dan we should have forwarded our own class prepared data set for their careful 'consideration' ...  Wink    What would be your own view on that  ?  Do you think they would be open to that sort of approach at all ?

Mike L.


Edited by blaze720 - 18 Mar 15 at 11:55pm
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 8:20am
Originally posted by blaze720

   Speculations on this forum regarding 'multi-rig' use are largely just that ... supposition and speculation.  In some classes many individuals don't sail at all in 'too heavy' or 'too light' conditons anyway which potentially makes just as much impact on the sample reliability anyway.  We regularly see it at our club and I dare say you see it at yours as well.

Mike L.


Good to see the talisman leading from the front at the most public handicap races hey Mike? Wink
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 8:27am
Originally posted by blaze720


perhaps Dan we should have forwarded our own class prepared data set for their careful 'consideration' ...  Wink    What would be your own view on that  ?  Do you think they would be open to that sort of approach at all ?

Mike L.


We got given an (estimate) of 1031 by great lakes, down from the original estimate of 1015 after their consideration of the SailJuice event results. As did the Aero 9, and I guess I prepared a data set for careful consideration for them too. Wink

PY Returns for the class were made in the conventional manner, from sailing clubs independant from the class, and the statistical outcome from that (a sample of many hundred, I would imagine, by the time a number was given by the RYA) was 1040, less than a percent different from my original calculation of 1050. I'd take that sort of accuracy, wouldn't you, Mike? Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 15 at 8:30am
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