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getafix View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Paramedic

is enough to convince me that massive mixed fleets are no longer a good idea.

I don't know that they are any more or less a good idea than they ever were. These events always have an element of lottery about them: its one of the reasons winning is a big deal: you need to be in the right boat and be a top notch sailor and get lucky...


Jim, completely agree, Tiger Trophy is a good example of a top-notch sailor in a good boat.

Ref FB's, the two things I've always liked about helming and crewing them is that they are

i)very well thought out, with good, reliable controls
ii)are sufficiently stable to give you a few vital seconds to get control over whatever would chuck you in, or have you in dire straights, in other, equally performance-orientated boats
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 1:37pm
Sharing a course with Assys is nothing. In my 470 days we sometimes shared a course with Tornados. Interesting times when they came in on port at the ww mark, tacked and parked for a fortnight when you want to bear off onto the run.

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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by Steve411

Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by Oli

dont see why people get stuck in those situations, just slow yourself down and pass behind, the asy goes off and no hole to sit in.  lesser of two evils, like picking weed up, do you stop for a second or two to remove it and loose 10 boat lengths or sail on and loose 100.

All very well, but i've seen assy boats (and others for that matter!!) come to virtually a complete standstill while hoisting and leave you with nowhere to go but up, especially if there is someone else underneath you. Then you get taken up to asymmetric angles all because one boat can't keep himself moving because he's in flap to hoist. He could wait a few seconds for the boats immediately around him to move clear and then move up giving those behind a clear signal of his intentions and where he wants to be on the course.

That, combined with the rather erratic way boats in the mid - to back of the fleet tend to be sailed is enough to convince me that massive mixed fleets are no longer a good idea.

When you are racing such disparate boats there has to be give and take on both sides. My experience in these events is that give is not often forthcoming if you find yourself in a pack of mid- rear of the fleet assys probably because in a breeze they are a handful and they have other priorities.

If you stop your boat at a mark and then try to take me up to assy angles you will be asked what you think you're doing. Likewise if you decide to gybe onto starboard next to me expecting me to go with you the other way and in all likelihood slowing you down more than you slow me. It's just sheer bad sailing and bad planning - why do you want to take other boats with you sitting on your breeze?

Rant over :)

So whilst the asymmetric hoists the laser or whatever goes high and tries to get around the front and clear ahead, may work just depends how quick the hoist is.

If they don't succeed and the asymmetric is taking them high slow down and fall behind.

Seems to me lots of people bemoan that handicap racing is for laughs yet take it so seriously when being sailed off in a direction they don't want to go, requires a bit of "grey matter application" to find a solution which is what sailing mostly is a spot of.

As for disparate boats see above, learn who and what you're sailing against and use that knowledge to make gains, force the asymmetric into foul tide early or take the symmetric higher than they'd like, part of the game.

Good polite conduct whilst racing is a must but if your racing the rules are enforced so there doesn't have to be give and take on both sides, it's a case of wrong or right, up to the people when they come in of the water as to whether they hold a grudge to any racing incident.

Spot on. In some respect it's no different to class racing. It's all about knowing your opponent. In class racing, I know who points high coming off the line in our fleet, so I make sure I don't start immediately to windward of any of them. I also know who favours which gybe downwind. All useful information. Likewise, in a mixed fleet, don't start to windward of a Merlin (or most boats with jibs) as they'll burn you off in no time. And you just need to be aware and make the necessary course adjustments when you're around assymetrics.

in my experience handicap racing teaches you to spot these idiosyncrasies earlier and develop that side of the sport faster than even one design does.
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Posts: 50 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chris_wht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

All very well, but i've seen assy boats (and others for that matter!!) come to virtually a complete standstill while hoisting and leave you with nowhere to go but up, especially if there is someone else underneath you. Then you get taken up to asymmetric angles all because one boat can't keep himself moving because he's in flap to hoist. He could wait a few seconds for the boats immediately around him to move clear and then move up giving those behind a clear signal of his intentions and where he wants to be on the course.

surely this is a problem for all of a couple of seconds for you? As soon as the kites up a pulling then they should be sailing past you anyway and you can go about your business, high, low, whatever.
I cant think of many non-kite boats that would stick with a kited one at that angle for long enough for it to be an issue, and if your sailing a sym kite boat, then i guess you too would be in a flap hoisting and this wouldnt be an issue.

of course you could always tack inside at the WW mark, or get there first Wink 

If you stop your boat at a mark and then try to take me up to assy angles you will be asked what you think you're doing.


sailing proper course i believe its called, which would have been preceded by an inside overlap, followed by application of Rule 11. The leward boat should have enough room to manouver, which would imply luffing enough to get the kite filled.  I think you would probably be asked what you were doing trying to drop down on them?


Edited by chris_wht - 04 Feb 15 at 6:43pm

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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 7:36pm
The time and distance thing will be a problem in light winds, where the kite won't fill when yu go deep, and chances are a single sailed boat will stick with you.

Agree the assy boat is in the right, but that it is a real weak point in rules not designed for mixed boat racing.
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by chris_wht

sailing proper course i believe its called, which would have been preceded by an inside overlap, followed by application of Rule 11. The leward boat should have enough room to manouver, which would imply luffing enough to get the kite filled.  I think you would probably be asked what you were doing trying to drop down on them?

No, it's called being a pillock.

If you stop your boat shortly after the windward in a flap to get your kite and force boats rounding with you to either sail high or hit you, you can't expect people to tolerate being taken miles off their proper course. Wait for a gap - or at lest the one or two boats on top of you to go past - then go up. It might cost you two places on the water, rather than completely stuffing boats that are thrashing you on corrected time anyway.

"The leeward boat should have time to manoever"

The windward boat needs to be given room and opportunity to keep clear. Even more so when you doing something he won't necessarily expect. If you round the mark and dive off to leeward, then you're signalling that you intend to sail low, take an initial hit and make a comeback at the next mark. Unless the boats rounding at the same time have had an opportunity to identify what class you are (At a busy, breezy rounding it's entirely possible that they won't have) the last thing you'd expect someone diving down low to do is luff right up 10 seconds later.

Give and take. I've seen this happen to others dozens of times, and had it happen to me once or twice.


Edited by Paramedic - 04 Feb 15 at 8:08pm
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 8:43pm
Don't assume they are thrashing on corrected times - I was 2 laps ahead when it happened to me ;-)
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 8:50pm
Seems to me that part of good big race tactics is to be aware of everything going on near the mark and adjust your mark rounding accordingly. I reckon the Laser who evaluates the situation well and doesn't get snaggled up with the asymmettric boat deserves to gain a few boats lengths on the guy who fails to get a handle on the developing situation.

You could even argue that for the asymmettric boat to give a get out of jail free to the bloke who sailed to an unwise position is unfair to the folks who sailed the situation better.

As for stopping to let another boat go through: isn't the inevitable result of that interference with even more boats as the next few come round? I think in complicated situations its best to just sail your own race as well as you can manage, because that's what the astute sailors around you will be expecting and allowing for.

Edited by JimC - 04 Feb 15 at 8:57pm
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 9:18pm
Well said Jim, still doesn't stop them thinking 'you ruined their race' when you get back ashore 😳
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chris_wht View Drop Down
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Posts: 50 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chris_wht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 15 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

 
No, it's called being a pillock.


no, being a pillock is getting yourself in a situation where your stuck on the outside of boat(s) at the windward mark, and thinking that your race is so much more important than theirs that they should stop and wait for you to go around them and sort yourself out.

and anyway, who takes you miles off your course, you could always stop and wait for them to pop out from underneath you

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