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bustinben View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Jan 13 at 11:33am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by tick

Oh come on! What a good and successful car the Morris Minor was, over 1,000.000 sold......why did they ever change it?

They didn't, it was superseded by other cars that people wanted more.

That hasn't happened with the laser.

And how is a car in any way a good analogy for a small dinghy used for racing?

really... I'd have thought it was discontinued and a newer product brought to market to replace it proactively.  Sure, you need demand, but demand needn't be passive or latent as seems to be the case in dinghydom.  

No, it doesn't need to be passive.

But people have tried to bring new products to market that should have pro-actively replaced the laser.  And they've failed.

"Common" complaints about a laser:
Hiking too uncomfortable
Poor rudder balance
Annoying mainsheet
Poor rig

There have been plenty of singlehanders that have "fixed" these issues.  And they've all failed to take over from the laser.

So maybe the "common" complaints aren't that common.  And most people just buy a laser and enjoy it!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 13 at 11:47am
Halyards were around, and common, when the Laser was designed. It was an informed choice to design it without one. I think the fact it can be put on the car roof, or stored in a garage, is no small part of its success. That is different to a Morris Minor, which was superseded by new technology.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 13 at 11:47am
Well, the product that replaced the 1100 never sold as well, which could indicate that the "we need a new product NOW" approach to marketing may not work as well in cars (or boats) as it does with 10 year old girls panting for the new One Direction track to come out.....

As Bustinben points out, people have been given the option of a "better Laser" many times and they have not taken it. Meanwhile, the snarking at the Laser continues to undermine one of our sport's very few current major success stories. 

I think Proctor used the "rabbits breed faster than racehorses" line to sneer at Holt designs. Interestingly, I think Proctor also used to use the popularity of some of his own spars and designs as evidence of their quality. And whether or not numbers prove excellence in boat design is arguably a completely moot point if you are talking about a boat for popular widespread class racing in big fleets, which has been the Laser's "niche" for 40 years.  The fact that it is popular is what it is all about.  If we want to keep the sport strong and vital we NEED classes that breed like rabbits or rodents, not like horses. 

It is NOT the Laser that is the problem with the sport - it's the other sectors that are failing and most other classes that are "failing" in terms of keeping the sport popular, so why blame the Laser? One reason is obvious - if you cock a snoot at the Laser you can feel superior to thousands of other sailors. If you cock a snoot at (say) the Canoe you can only feel superior to a few dozen. It often seems to me that's one of the big reasons (perhaps THE big reason) why people single out the Laser.

Re XD kit; as Jeffers pointed out, it has made the competition more even rather than making the top line sailors significantly faster. If you train 10-30 hours, then you can get the vang on hard with the old system but the club racers, kids and women couldn't. The XD system evens out the strength advantage previously enjoyed by fit mature males. We used to "super vang" and IIRC old Laser manuals speak of winding the cunno down until the cunno hole was beside the boom, so I'm far from sure that there is a major extra load on the rig in high-level sailing.

To some of us, the Laser is like the rule of other sports and games. Yes, if you changed them the game or sport may become "better", in that if you changed the rules of chess so that every pawn would become a queen then the pieces would be more powerful, or if you made football goalposts 10m wide you may get more goals, or if you allowed shooters to use heavy machine guns then they would score more bulls-eyes. But the issue is that sport is not about "effectiveness" like that; the sport is about doing your best in a certain rule-set, a rule set that rates #1 in terms of popularity. And while small classes are great (I've sailed in plenty of them) there is also something wonderful about sailing in a class where you can have an interest in common with thousands of people around the world, or dozens at your own club.

Having said that, if the class allowed non-performance-enhancing add-ons like sidedeck pads or some widget to stop the sheet getting wrapped around the transom, I'd support it in the interests of making the class more user-friendly.

To end this saga, the Rooster or anything else faces the problem that to become like a Laser it must not just succeed in the UK - a market where geography makes introducing new classes extremely easy - but also in places where geography makes introducing new classes extremely hard, and that's most of the world.





Edited by Chris 249 - 18 Jan 13 at 11:54am
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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 13 at 11:48am
Originally posted by bustinben

And most people just buy a laser and enjoy it!


Most people who buy a Laser seem to abandon them in that patch nettles at the back of the dinghy park. And given the well-publicised financial travails of the builder. I question just how many they've actually been selling in recent years.
Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB

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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 13 at 11:54am
Originally posted by SoggyBadger

Originally posted by bustinben

And most people just buy a laser and enjoy it!


Most people who buy a Laser seem to abandon them in that patch nettles at the back of the dinghy park. And given the well-publicised financial travails of the builder. I question just how many they've actually been selling in recent years.

I disagree.  People who buy all sorts of boats leave them to rot at the back of the boat park.

I would argue that proportion of lasers abandoned to rot vs those tha are raced is probably the same as any other class.

And if you don't think they're selling many lasers at the moment, why don't you look at the sail numbers?  They've probably sold more than everything else outside of oppies and sunfishes combined!


Edited by bustinben - 18 Jan 13 at 11:59am
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ex laser View Drop Down
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Posts: 725 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 13 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by SoggyBadger

Originally posted by bustinben

And most people just buy a laser and enjoy it!


Most people who buy a Laser seem to abandon them in that patch nettles at the back of the dinghy park. And given the well-publicised financial travails of the builder. I question just how many they've actually been selling in recent years.

I disagree.  People who buy all sorts of boats leave them to rot at the back of the boat park.

I would argue that proportion of lasers abandoned to rot vs those tha are raced is probably the same as any other class.

And if you don't think they're selling many lasers at the moment, why don't you look at the sail numbers?  They've probably sold more than everything else outside of oppies and sunfishes combined!


i am old enough to remember laser selling 10,000 to 20,000 a year.
now i would be very surprised if they sold more than 50 to private buyers in this country last year.
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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 13 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by Chris 249


Having said that, if the class allowed non-performance-enhancing add-ons like sidedeck pads or some widget to stop the sheet getting wrapped around the transom, I'd support it in the interests of making the class more user-friendly.

But both of these are performance enhancing - one makes it easier (less painful; more effective) to hike harder, for longer. Therefore faster.

The 2nd results in fewer failed gybes, therefore less capsizing.

Easier to sail will always equal faster around the course.

Having said that, it has occurred to my slow brain that the Laser probably represents the centre ground of the 'bell curve' that is dinghy sailing with the extremes of the skiffy stuff at one end and the really slow kids / learner boats at the other.

Its far from perfect, but that's why some people love it. Its a boat that rewards hard work. Someone I know (6'+ 80-85Kgs ish) sails his only when its blowing a hooley, because it provides a really good workout.
Nick
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 13 at 12:20pm
So what other classes are selling 10-20k boats a year at the moment?  Last year "they" sold at least 4000 boats worldwide looking at the numbers.  How many RS100s were sold?  How many supernovas were sold?  How about the D1?

The total numbers aren't relevant anyway.  What matters is that nothing is coming forward to supersede it, despite there being many attempts.
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ex laser View Drop Down
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Posts: 725 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 13 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by bustinben

So what other classes are selling 10-20k boats a year at the moment?  Last year "they" sold at least 4000 boats worldwide looking at the numbers.  How many RS100s were sold?  How many supernovas were sold?  How about the D1?

The total numbers aren't relevant anyway.  What matters is that nothing is coming forward to supersede it, despite there being many attempts.


dont get me wrong, i love the laser. i have spend most of my sailing life in them.

but, 1) all classes have to change or die. one designs change slowly, development classes change quickly. its how you manage the changes thats important.

2) i agree in the short to mid term nothing will replace it, but with out some small changes, in ten to twenty years time it will be as obsolete as a minisail (sorry rupert) and then there will be a gap in the market and it will be replaced.

3) 4000 boats is not a lot world wide, when you take out the ones used in regattas and ones owned by national sailing federations.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 13 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

 Having said that, if the class allowed non-performance-enhancing add-ons like sidedeck pads or some widget to stop the sheet getting wrapped around the transom, I'd support it in the interests of making the class more user-friendly.

This- in a nutshell, is exactly where I'm at the with my view on the Laser these days.  

It is after all recommended to a lot of newbies, and for cost and fleet reasons, the boat of choice for many weekend sailors.  I just don't think the arguments for such strict controlled one-design and abeyance of some of the legacy issues should get in the way of making the boat that tiny bit more accessible...   it's why I've got zero beef with Laser replica sails for club racing, I'd even turn a blind eye at non UKLA open meetings too if I were competing at them.


Edited by pondmonkey - 18 Jan 13 at 12:58pm
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