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RTIR 12 - Cancelled Classes
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gbr940 View Drop Down
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Posts: 198 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gbr940 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: RTIR 12 - Cancelled Classes
    Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 10:35am
With my personal head on (and by no means reflects the J/80 UKCA at all) - in response to pondmonkey, it DID ruin peoples day's and not just because of the frustration from not being able to race but because financially its a big event to invest in - entry fee: £125, +moorings +travel, +accomodation +food prep for boat. So yes it did ruin peoples days and the ISC don't think they should have to refund at all - even though the Race Committee get paid and expenses are covered...never mind the catering that is probably paid for by the entry fees as well.
 
As for this stupid argument about racing v cruising - what given right does a racer ever have over a cruising boat at any time...RRS only apply to the event but on the water the ICRPAS remain enforced at all times and take precedent.
 
Rant over...breath and relax -- woosaarr!!
 
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Smithy View Drop Down
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Posts: 21 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Smithy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 9:28am
No, I know RRS don't apply, I was referring to a simple concept called "courtesy". 
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 9:16am
Originally posted by Smithy

The other thing you may like to think about when you "go round anyway" is the other competitors - the sports boats who did that were making no attempt at all to keep clear of the boats who WERE racing - we had our start obstructed and then had to take action a few more times to dodge selfish prats who seemed to have conveniently forgotten that boats not racing are supposed to keep clear of those who are.

Going to put my pedant rule hat on here, just for amusements sake. I assume you're referring to: 23.1 If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing. Which is a rule of part 2. 

The preamble to part 2 states: The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 23.1. When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or government right-of-way rules. If the sailing instructions so state, the rules of Part 2 are replaced by the right-of-way rules of the IRPCAS or by government right-of-way rules.

Racing is defined: Racing A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.

Because racing for sportsboats was abandoned, part 2 of the RRS (including the preamble, and 23.1) didn't apply to them. The only rules governing right of way between sportsboats going around and the racing fleet were IRPCAS. *

[/Pedant rule hat]

* Which is not to say that as a racing sailor, I don't think that keeping clear of racing boats when cruising is the right and proper thing to do. I do so think. However, not everybody thinks similarly. Check out any relevant thread on ybw. 


Edited by Presuming Ed - 03 Jul 12 at 9:22am
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 9:12am
Originally posted by laser193713

 So again, explain to me why we shouldn't have gone round, also, we got a finish as we appeared in 11th on the line honours results.  

So there you go- everyone's happy.  The race office rightly made a call in the favour of safety (21st century litigation / death by press culture, can't blame them really), you still exercised your god given human right to sail the oceans at your own risk, they even gave you a hoot as you 'finished' and you can now come on Y&Y to make it absolutely, abundantly clear that you guys did really well despite the call to bin your racing.

Clap

I would probably let it drop now though, as at the end of the day the folks that run race offices are also giving up their free time and you'll need them to come back and do it again soon enough.  None of them would like to think they 'ruined anyone's day', and in truth they didn't- you still got to take the pocket rocket around under your own volition, whilst they appear to have maintained an exemplary safety record for that many boats in that tighter a space with that much wind and sea running.... good shout on both of you.
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Smithy View Drop Down
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Posts: 21 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Smithy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 7:46am
In practice as well as the 30knot gusts (oh yes there clearly were) there were some pretty big and dangerous seas in the overfalls just past St Cats - where we passed the dismasted sports boats last year - can fully understand the organisers deciding the risk of running the class didn't make sense
 
The other thing you may like to think about when you "go round anyway" is the other competitors - the sports boats who did that were making no attempt at all to keep clear of the boats who WERE racing - we had our start obstructed and then had to take action a few more times to dodge selfish prats who seemed to have conveniently forgotten that boats not racing are supposed to keep clear of those who are
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 12 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by ASok

I would question the suitability of a sportsboat in that kind of weather. Worst case you damage something round the back of the island - yes you can see land, but can you rescue yourself. Most carry, at best, a glorified egg whisk with minimal fuel - is that going to motor you to safety?

No real safe havens between the Needles and Wotton Creek. Ventnor is a tiny drying harbour, entrance to Bembridge and Ryde is tide dependant. Between the Needles and St Catherines is 10 miles of lee shore. 
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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 12 at 9:54pm
None of them had to sail...

The rig isnt really that big, the boat is just very efficient. 7m^2 wing mast helps with that.  As for having a chip on my shoulder, no, it isnt my boat. I could have gone round on a 45 footer if i wanted, but much more fun on the beast! 

You also seem to be missing the fact that it is a one design boat, not a one off. That is just how they are, our rig is the same as everyone elses.
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Posts: 739 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ASok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 12 at 9:53pm
I would question the suitability of a sportsboat in that kind of weather. Worst case you damage something round the back of the island - yes you can see land, but can you rescue yourself. Most carry, at best, a glorified egg whisk with minimal fuel - is that going to motor you to safety?
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 12 at 9:45pm
Looking at the sportsboat class, there were 6 modified J80s without guard rails and 2 RS Elites (of 15 entries). Deciding that it's best to keep them that lot away from the back of the island in a forecast 30 kts sounds like a fairly straightforward decision to me. 
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 12 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by laser193713

Cool Runnings does have lifelines, but only for a small length of the hull, a bit like a melges 24.  There are no Jackstays but all crew were wearing Spinlock Deckvest Lites and HL drysuits. There are windsurf style footstraps for the helm and the bowman (myself, sat behind the helm), the rest of the crew rely on the skateboard style deck grip and guardwires to stay on the boat.   The most likely person to fall overboard would have been me, running forwards and backwards as we gybed.  Perhaps the helm could have fallen off too but the footstraps make that unlikely. 

As it turned out we did not lose any crew overboard. Didn't have a reason to, because we were well in control.  Venomous lost a crew member overboard and they are about 46 foot I think, they retired and their crew member was picked up by a Farr 45. The man overboard was a non sailor, so perhaps should not have been sailing.  This is my point, it is not really the boat, it is the standard of the crew that dictates safety.  Normally a better crew are more likely to know their limits, so why not leave it up to the crews to decide.  It is not like this decision was down to the race officer for all the 45 footers that went round. They made the decision and in a number of cases, I think the wrong decision was made.  In our case, we made the right decision to go round, and it was great fun! 

Bear in mind that it is nearly impossible to capsize cool runnings, the boat weighs 750 kgs, with a 400kg bulb keel at a draft of 2.2m. A 3m beam makes the boat even more stable.  You can step on the side of this boat at the dock and it does not move in the water, it is probably more stable than most 40 footers. A very clever boat proving that wide is fast both upwind and down if you can make it light enough. The boat is also pretty much unsinkable. The hatch was kept sealed closed all the way round. So again, explain to me why we shouldn't have gone round, also, we got a finish as we appeared in 11th on the line honours results.  

What do you suppose jackstays and harnesses would achieve when you are doing 20+ knots, slowly being beaten to death by pounding waves, to be honest I would rather be floating away waiting to be picked up than beaten to death by the hull!

I agree with some of your points but even I've gotta say your coming across badly here, sounds like you have a serious chip on your shoulder about the size of your boat. Of course your boat can capsize because the reason you have all that bulb weight is because you've also put a massive rig on it.
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