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RTIR 12 - Cancelled Classes
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: RTIR 12 - Cancelled Classes
    Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 10:43am
Originally posted by gbr940


As for this stupid argument about racing v cruising - what given right does a racer ever have over a cruising boat at any time...RRS only apply to the event but on the water the ICRPAS remain enforced at all times and take precedent.
 

Ok I agree you should have been allowed to race but we also got annoyed by sportsboats getting in our way round the course when they weren't racing for anything. I know there are no rules to say you should but as racers yourselves how many times have you been annoyed by a cruiser stopping you tacking/getting on your wind etc. etc. It just seems that as racers who had suddenly been converted to cruisers many boats did exactly the things they moan about when they are racing.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 10:47am
I guess the point I'm making is that entry fee aside, if you were really keen then you could have cruised round and all bar looking up your boat name on a spreadsheet, you could get a good day out and make the best of the time and money already invested.  I know dinghy sailors who have done just that, and also know a guy who routinely goes around in his rib with the fleet.

If you were not prepared to go around regardless, as per Cool Runnings, then it strikes me that the decision was probably the correct call for you anyway?  

With regards the entry fee... I guess it comes with the territory and your own personal POV.  I know from running events in the past that we did whatever we could to ensure we didn't have to refund entries on the grounds of a poor weather.... it cripples club budgets and can ruin events from running in the future.  

I take this as part and parcel of the risks of participating in a weather dependent sport- and I'd much rather share that risk with all the other competitors through the combined entry fees, than find organisers are 'put out of business' because the entire financial risk falls on them. 
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 11:06am
Originally posted by laser193713

Cool Runnings does have lifelines, but only for a small length of the hull, a bit like a melges 24.  There are no Jackstays but all crew were wearing Spinlock Deckvest Lites and HL drysuits. There are windsurf style footstraps for the helm and the bowman (myself, sat behind the helm), the rest of the crew rely on the skateboard style deck grip and guardwires to stay on the boat.   The most likely person to fall overboard would have been me, running forwards and backwards as we gybed.  Perhaps the helm could have fallen off too but the footstraps make that unlikely. 

...........................

What do you suppose jackstays and harnesses would achieve when you are doing 20+ knots, slowly being beaten to death by pounding waves, to be honest I would rather be floating away waiting to be picked up than beaten to death by the hull!


That puts me more fully on the side of the race committee.
Floating away and expecting somebody else to pick you up is not really the offshore way of thinking.

I would suggest, rather than beating this subject to death on here, the sportsboats get together and request a meeting with the ISC.
what info did they have at the time the decidion was made?
what were their criteria for cancelling?
how can it be done better?

I think it may be a matter of what was the probability of it being x knots windier than it turned out?

Bearing in mind that as late as Wednesday, nothing over F5 was forecast.
Unfortunately, forecasting is still less than exact.
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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by Quagers

Originally posted by gbr940


As for this stupid argument about racing v cruising - what given right does a racer ever have over a cruising boat at any time...RRS only apply to the event but on the water the ICRPAS remain enforced at all times and take precedent.
 

Ok I agree you should have been allowed to race but we also got annoyed by sportsboats getting in our way round the course when they weren't racing for anything. I know there are no rules to say you should but as racers yourselves how many times have you been annoyed by a cruiser stopping you tacking/getting on your wind etc. etc. It just seems that as racers who had suddenly been converted to cruisers many boats did exactly the things they moan about when they are racing.

Sorry if we got in your way but we were racing, you must remember that you are not just racing in your class start but also in the overall line honours race.  Any boat is allowed to start at the time of the first gun, provided they have entered, if they want to go for line honours. So, that is what we did, we were racing, as were every other boat out there who started.
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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 12:21pm
With regards to entry fees, a lot of insurance companies will cover you for that, check it out! I know my dinghy insurance covers me for abandoned racing and refunds the entry fee.
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gbr940 View Drop Down
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Posts: 198 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gbr940 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 12:23pm

In short - to date, no official correspondance (written or verbal) or apology has been given from ISC or the PRO and the Race Committee as to why they cancelled our fleet. Correspondance and communications have been very one-way to ISC from the class association and competitors and this is why most the fleet didn't "cruise" around the IoW.

RS400 GBR1321
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 12:44pm
why would they apologise for a decision you have entrusted them to make when you entered their race?  

If you really think ISC stink, I'd suggest you form your own RTI as part of your class programme.
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rogerd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1076 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 1:16pm

I cant think of a nice way to put this but it has been said politely earlier on in the thread.

My father had a good way of putting it...
 
Sh*t happens...... get over it.
 
Having said that I do sympathise that you missed your day out but its not the ISCs fault it was to windy. Huge amounts of time and effort go into organising any event and if the weathers not right on the day no one should expect a refund. A few years ago it was a drifter and everyone rafted up at the needles. Many retired, motored out of trouble and carried on RTI some went home. Should the ISC have refunded entry fees because the weather spoilt peoples fun? I think not.
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by laser193713

Sorry if we got in your way but we were racing, you must remember that you are not just racing in your class start but also in the overall line honours race.  Any boat is allowed to start at the time of the first gun, provided they have entered, if they want to go for line honours.

Cite, please. I don't believe that you're correct. 

6.3 Abandonment
6.3.1 Flag N over A alone accompanied by three sound signals will mean that ALL races are cancelled and will NOT be resailed. This changes RRS Race Signals – Flag “N”.

6.3.2 Flag N over A over the class identification flag accompanied by two sound signals will mean that the race for that class is cancelled and will NOT be re-sailed. This changes RRS Race Signals - Flag “N”.

9.4 Starting Times
The starting times for classes and fleets are shown in Table 1

10.1.2 RRS Appendix A4.2 is changed in that a boat that is OCS will 
be scored with a time penalty of 5% of the boat’s elapsed 
time rounded to the nearest second, unless the Race 
Committee decides that the boat has gained a significant 
advantage in the Race, in which case she will be scored as 
OCS.

10.1.3 A boat that is scored with an OCS time penalty will not be eligible for any ‘Line Honours’ prizes, and a boat which is scored as OCS will be ineligible to receive a finishing position.1 on page 9.

17. SCORING
17.1 Corrected Time
In sequence from the shortest time after the elapsed time has been multiplied by the relevant time correction factor.
17.2 Elapsed Time
For one-design classes, times will be shown in chronological sequence from the shortest recorded time.
17.3 Boats whose sail numbers are not identified will be timed on the basis of their declaration.

20. PRIZES
The trophies and prizes for 1st in each class and/or division will be presented at the Island Sailing Club on Sunday 1st July 2012 at 1200 noon (see Table 2 on page 10). Second prizes in each division may be collected from the Race Office. Other prizes, where applicable, may be collected from the Race Office.

RRS definitions: Start A boat starts when, having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, and having complied with rule 30.1 if it applies, any part of her hull, crew or equipment crosses the starting line in the direction of the first mark.

Racing A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.

Without a starting sequence, there is no preparatory signal and no starting signal, so you're never racing and you never start. There isn't an overall elapsed time race - there are no overall elapsed time results, and the SIs make no mention of any such race (no SIs = no race). There are prize for first monohull, multihull, gaffer, IRC and ISC boat to finish (NOT fastest elapsed time), but that's within the framework of the class start framework. The first start was for Open 60s and IRC 0 (1.098 and above). 


Edited by Presuming Ed - 03 Jul 12 at 1:50pm
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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 12 at 1:50pm
Doesn't need citation, we got a result, our class was abandoned. We did not feature in the IRC overall results, just the line honours board.  We therefore were racing.

Going back to a previous point about not being clipped on. This is not an offshore race, so why should we need to clip on.  Have a watch of this video, explain to me how we are meant to slow that boat down to a speed mentioned in the video. Trust me, there is no way to stop this thing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUx6oZTCQc8&feature=player_embedded#!

Don't moan at us for being unsafe, it was the Olympic hot shots on Kolga that weren't wearing their life jackets despite Y flag flying http://image2.roundtheisland.org.uk/web/photos/2012/ngr/lowres/080008.jpg 
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