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tgruitt View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 Nov 10 at 11:46am
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by tgruitt

Originally posted by Peaky

 

Out of interest, how do they define "skiff"?  Its been debated long and hard on forums with no definitive answer.  Whilst clearly it isn't one, if the 470 class put themselves forward for the Women's Skiff, there is no means of saying its not eligable.  Without a definition, any boat could claim to be a skiff - even a Star!



I suppose it's leaning toward an overpowered lightweight (for it's size) planing hull with twin trapeze, powered downhill by a large masthead asymmetric spinnaker. But the I suppose the 49er fits all of those apart from the weight, at 120kg you can't say they are light!


Actually, there is very clear historical authority to say that "skiff", in the way it has been used in small sailboat racing for 50-100 yeard (depending on where you are) DOES have a fairly clear definition.

That definition, like any word, has developed over time.  Personally, I hate seeing it used too widely because that turns a word that actually means something into a useless piece of marketing rubbish.

But in this context, "skiffs" DOES has a historical meaning that is reflected in its current use. The mere fact that you have to actually do some research (blowing the dust of old mags, newsletters and books, etc) to find out its definition and development doesn't mean that there is no way that it can be defined.

I do find the controversy a bit odd, because it's strange that people can get so indignant when they've got no factual basis for their beliefs because they've done no homework.  Imagine if there was a controversy over "silly mid on" or a similar term.  Why would anyone expect to be able to weigh into the discussion unless they'd actually done some research on what the term meant?


I was only offering a possible explanation based upon the two skiff classes I know about, one of which I have sailed. 12 and 18 ft skiffs.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 10 at 11:57am
I wasn't having a go at you; I was just following up on Peaky's query about how one defines "skiff", and saying that there can be a pretty close definition of what the term historically meant in this context.  There's no perfect definition of the way it's used today, but we can get close enough to say that, looking at the way the term has been used in the sport of small sailboat racing, something like a 470 could only be called a "skiff" by someone deliberately trying to ignore the fact that for decades the term had an accepted meaning in this context.

I think you're going around it the right way - find out where the term comes from in this context, work out the defining characteristics of those boats, and there's a pretty good definition.

In this case, the term came from 16 Foot Skiffs, moved to 12 Footers early on and into 18s in the '30s, and for decades only those classes (plus perhaps Aussie 14s) were called "Skiffs".  Well, there were Westray Skiffs and Connanicut Skiffs or something, but they were clearly something very different to a 49er or 18, and there're outside of the current use of the term.  The term "skiff", as we know it today in this context, clearly came from the 12s, 16s and 18s and it was then clearly attached to a couple of Aussie classes and then 49ers, 5000s etc.  The traditional "Skiffs" and the new "skiffs" all have particular physical characteristics that show that they are quite different from a 470, as you said. And the 470 would never have been called a skiff by its designer, that's pretty sure.

So yeah, if we look at the classes where the term came from as you did, we see that there IS a way of creating a pretty good definition of "skiff", allowing for the term to develop just like the traditional Skiffs have developed the term. And there's no way a 470 could be called a "skiff" in those terms.



Edited by Chris 249 - 14 Nov 10 at 12:02pm
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Posts: 584 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 10 at 8:22pm

Taken from wiki.

And there`s me thinking the term came from a rowing boat !!
 
"The word is related to ship and has a complicated etymology: "skiff" comes from the Middle english skif, which derives from the Old french esquif, which in turn derives from the Old italian schifo, which is itself of germanic origin (german Schiff). "Ship" comes from the old english "scip", which has the same Germanic predecessor."
 
So maybe ANY wind powered vessel from the middle ages though to now can reasonable call itself a skiff in the true historical sense of the word.

"The term skiff is also used to refer to a high performance sailing dinghy,one that usually features an asymmetrical spinnaker and requires that the crew use a trapeze to help balance the boat. Examples include: Cherub skiff, 12ft skiff  international 14,( 14 ft skiff ),16 ft,18ft skiff, 29er,29xx,49er & Musto performance skiff."

I just couldn`t resist that.
 
So square riggers for the skiffy champs ?


Edited by bert - 14 Nov 10 at 8:25pm
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 10 at 12:29am

Bert, if we relied on the normal dictionary definition and ancient historical usage for terms in our sport we'd all be very confused.. For example, we know what a yell of "starboard" means but what does the ancient term for a steering device have to do with who's got right of way?

"Dinghy" comes from the Indian word for a houseboat, passenger and working boat that was poled or rowed. A “catamaran” was a monohull log raft, not a twin-hull boat.  According to the Shorter Oxford, a “trapeze” in sailing is a “sliding support”, not a wire or line from the rigging.  And of course, the Singaporeans who invented the trapeze didn’t call it a trapeze.

So if we used archaic or dictionary meanings, an Olympic trapeze dinghy could be a houseboat propelled by poles rather than sails and with a sliding seat, and an Olympic catamaran could be a monohull log raft.

So basically, since dictionary compilers haven’t bothered to define such niche words as many of the ones we use in sailing, we can’t rely on dictionaries - but if we research the modern usage of the term “skiff” in this context in the way that dictionary compilers and lexicographers do, then it’s easy to see that there is a way to create a reasonable definition of the term.  
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Posts: 304 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 10 at 7:04am
Originally posted by Chris 249

Bert, if we relied on the normal dictionary definition and ancient historical usage for terms in our sport we'd all be very confused.. For example, we know what a yell of "starboard" means but what does the ancient term for a steering device have to do with who's got right of way?

"Dinghy" comes from the Indian word for a houseboat, passenger and working boat that was poled or rowed. A “catamaran” was a monohull log raft, not a twin-hull boat.  According to the Shorter Oxford, a “trapeze” in sailing is a “sliding support”, not a wire or line from the rigging.  And of course, the Singaporeans who invented the trapeze didn’t call it a trapeze.

So if we used archaic or dictionary meanings, an Olympic trapeze dinghy could be a houseboat propelled by poles rather than sails and with a sliding seat, and an Olympic catamaran could be a monohull log raft.

So basically, since dictionary compilers haven’t bothered to define such niche words as many of the ones we use in sailing, we can’t rely on dictionaries - but if we research the modern usage of the term “skiff” in this context in the way that dictionary compilers and lexicographers do, then it’s easy to see that there is a way to create a reasonable definition of the term.  

So lets get this straight, you live in Austrailia and you're telling us that you don't speak English as in the Shorter Oxford?!
What a surprise! Wink
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 10 at 8:28am
I blame it all on the cockney and Irish convicts, like my ancestors! Smile

We're a very honest family these days, just because we've found out we're really, really bad at getting away with crimes without getting fingered.  Dead  




Edited by Chris 249 - 15 Nov 10 at 8:29am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 10 at 4:39pm

So would you count an 800 or a 29er as skiff, Chris?  Frank Bethwaite does, but I am sure there are some that don't.  Do the ISAF?

 

The trouble is that skiffs haven't always had assy kites, racks or multiple trapezes.  So we can't use those as a way of identifying a skiff, otherwise 18's from the 1970's would no longer be considered 'skiffs'.  The ISAF consider  a 49er to be a skiff, and the vast majority would agree.  But what about a 29er? Or a Buzz?

 

None of which takes away from the fact that women have not universally shown much desire to race skiffs, and if you can win a medal just by being the best out of 20 or so teams worldwide, that devalues the Olympics somewhat IMO.

 

I'm also interested to know how the ISAF will sell the "Men's 2nd Singlehander" to the IOC.  Surely someone will pick up on that and ask "Why are we having duplicate events? "
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 10 at 5:20pm
Chris
In you profession Im sure you get the dictionary out quite often to define words, although you claim honesty Im sure there are some that would disagree Big smile
at least dick turpin had the honesty to wear a mask!
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 10 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by Stuart O

Chris
In you profession Im sure you get the dictionary out quite often to define words, although you claim honesty Im sure there are some that would disagree Big smile
at least dick turpin had the honesty to wear a mask!


Actually I don't work as a solicitor, but in legal ethics - and one day I hope to find some.*  If I was in practise I'd have shinier boats, and no time to sail them.

But (down here at any rate) the dictionary definition isn't legal proof of what a word actually means.


* no offence to the many honest people in the profession.


Edited by Chris 249 - 16 Nov 10 at 1:55am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 10 at 1:41am
Originally posted by Peaky

So would you count an 800 or a 29er as skiff, Chris?  Frank Bethwaite does, but I am sure there are some that don't.  Do the ISAF?

 

The trouble is that skiffs haven't always had assy kites, racks or multiple trapezes.  So we can't use those as a way of identifying a skiff, otherwise 18's from the 1970's would no longer be considered 'skiffs'.  The ISAF consider  a 49er to be a skiff, and the vast majority would agree.  But what about a 29er? Or a Buzz?

 

None of which takes away from the fact that women have not universally shown much desire to race skiffs, and if you can win a medal just by being the best out of 20 or so teams worldwide, that devalues the Olympics somewhat IMO.

 

I'm also interested to know how the ISAF will sell the "Men's 2nd Singlehander" to the IOC.  Surely someone will pick up on that and ask "Why are we having duplicate events? "


You are of course right, Peaky, Skiffs certainly haven’t always had assys or traps, and two of the three “classic Skiffs” (Aussie 12s and 16s, where the “Skiff” term came from before it was applied to 12s and 18s) still don’t have racks.   

But we know (because it’s easy to trace the published usage) that the “skiff” term as we use it in the sport today came from the 12s, 16s and 18s.  And if you plot these Skiffs on a chart of righting moment for LOA and sail area for LOA, these three classes stand out from contemporary dinghies quite clearly. I haven’t got the charts here, but even the fastest and most advanced of dinghies fall into a different area of the chart.  This seems to be a clear way of differentiating the dinghy and the Skiff in the past, and IMHO it is still valid even when applied to newer classes. 

Interestingly (although I’m going from memory) I think even today the three “heritage” Skiff classes still stand out quite clearly from any other class (with the possible exception of the UK but not Aust/NZ Cherub, Boss and L5000) when you plot them using these ratios.  The other boats just about everyone would call "skiffs" (49ers, maybe the 800, L5000, etc) also fall in an area that's well away from what people would normally call "dinghies" (505s, 470, RS500, etc).  

The "singlehanded skiff" types are also in a separate band from the other singlehanders. Interestingly, such fast boats as the German Renjolle (which are FD speed or quicker) and the Canoe also fall into "dinghy" territory, which sounds good to me because while they are great boats they're certainly not skiffs in any way.

Personally, this seems to be one way of working out what a skiff is (if we accept that we can’t restrict it to 12s, 16s and 18s, which seems reasonable).   These ratios are what has always set the Skiffs apart, and what pretty much still sets them apart.  These ratios are not just historical - they pretty much drive the physical shape of these boats, of course.  So the ratios are historically and physically appropriate  IMHO.  There are, of course, boats at the boundaries, but there’s marginal cases in just about everything, and those borderline cases are surprisingly small in number (although some of them may be a bit controversial).  

Of course, to a huge extent the Skiff classes share a heritage that marks them apart, but that’s arguably overstated.  For example, the Kiwi 18 Footers come from quite different historical stock to the Aussie 18s, while the Kiwi 12s have different origins again and the Queenslanders had huge influence at times.  The influence of the fast Kiwi/Aussie dinghies on Skiffs has been huge, too. Therefore it’s hard to simply say “the only Skiffs are the classes that developed out of the Sydney working boats” as some do.

But whatever way you look at it, the 470 and most other boats (including such quick and influential ones as the 505, Canoe etc) don’t share the Skiff heritage or history, or the Skiff dimensions, design and ratios, so it’s easy to say they are not skiffs as the term has been used for many decades in our sport.

PS completely agree with the rest of your post.  



Edited by Chris 249 - 16 Nov 10 at 5:27am
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