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    Posted: 02 Mar 19 at 7:09am
The UFO is perhaps the only foiler that has the potential for wider appeal. Dave Clarks self imposed specification was inspired, along the lines of don’t try and make a fastest thing you can, make something that more people can get up on foils and enjoy that. It comes in a a great price, is safe and practical. 

I still doesn’t address the other foiling issue as Chris 249 says not any good it light winds. In addition you are limited where you can actually sail them. 

It must be very similar to the issues with catamarans, back in the 80s lots of manufacturers and loads of marketing effort but they have hardly made an impact on the dinghy market as a whole, mainly down to suitable locations I would imagine. 

It probably comes down to something much deeper as to why people actually sail 
I guy at my old club hit the nail on the head for me ‘I have to concentrate on it just enough that I am free from all my other daily thoughts’ he put it much better than that. 
It is that very pure act of getting all the complexities right at the same time that you get the boat nicely moving, then you bring the competitive element into it and it all goes up a notch. In the right conditions and the right boat one of the legs might get you onto a screaming reach and a bit of adrenaline kicks in. That leg will be a small percentage of the race but you still carry on following the course because the on upwind slog you’re inching ahead of that guy you have been trying to beat all season. That is what it is all about. 



Edited by tink - 02 Mar 19 at 7:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 19 at 4:10am
Originally posted by KazRob

It does seem a little bit like the trap windsurfing fell into which ended up in less and less sailing as there was ‘never quite enough’ wind. But (as someone who rediscovered the joys of a big ol’ raceboard in the last couple of years) it’s great to see the all weather Windsurfer make a return and I think dinghy sailing generally has missed that trap. Maybe to the person looking in from the outside the foiling looks great but when you go to learn you get stuffed in a (safe) but uninspiring Wayfarer or Pico which results in the opposite of what was intended.

As a very biased Windsurfer owner, I have to admit that I used to be convinced that the way to re-grow the sport was to concentrate on simple, economical accessible craft. That's what the Windsurfer class does and what we do in my new club.

But the experience with the new Windsurfer has made me realise how many problems this approach brings. There's the problem for the poor manufacturer, who has to build four moulds to keep up with demand. There's the trauma for the importer, who has to unload container-loads of boards and finds that there are still people throwing money down and asking for more. There's the horrible situation of the class association finding itself with the second-biggest fleet in any national titles (although that's partly related to championship locations, of course). There's the dilemma for those of us trying to find space to rig and store our boards at the regatta venue, and to deal with all these happy new faces on the increasingly crowded start line.

We've got the same problem at our club. Since it started concentrating on cheap simple Lasers, without discouraging other types, it's had a traumatic time. New sailors are having to drive for hours to find a second-hand Laser to buy.  We're running out of room in the dinghy park. The handicap system that worked for a tiny fleet of experienced sailors has been destroyed by the arrival of beginners, a bigger fleet and the rising standard of sailing, like an Olympic silver medallist on his world champion A Class cat. It's taking two or three times as long to work out the results because the fleet has become so much bigger. Some of those damned kids who recently got into the sport are getting so keen that they're beating most of the adults.

It's a warning for all - keep the sport elitist so you don't have to deal with all crowds of smiling faces who are getting into a sport they love! 


Edited by Chris 249 - 02 Mar 19 at 4:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 19 at 4:02am
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by Rupert

Having attended a RYA conference recently where foiling courses were discussed, it was very obvious that those at the top of the instructor food chain see foiling as just one part of the sailing jigsaw. However, it is a part that can attract people into the sport. Personally, I think there is a disconnect, unless there is no need to teach plain old boring sailing to those who want to go foiling. The learn to sail, get good at it - get bloody excellent, actually - then foil model doesn't fit the current box ticking format of pastimes.

UFO?


Interesting little boat but from the little I can find out it's slower than a Sunfish in non-foiling winds, apparently, which means that it may have trouble staying ahead of Laser 4.7s in such winds. That may or may not be a problem for an individual buyer. Whether it's really easy for the average sailor to reliably foil appears to be unproven, from the reaction from the generally very enthusiastic owners who post about it. It's a cool little boat, but will it ever become a first or second rank class?

I've got huge respect for the Clarks and what they do. Dave mentioned in an address to the Foiling Week, I think, that every time people sell a boat there's a 25% chance they are lost to sailing. That means that from the start, any switch to foiling will have to attract lots of new sailors before it even breaks even, as far as growing the sport. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 19 at 10:45pm
It does seem a little bit like the trap windsurfing fell into which ended up in less and less sailing as there was ‘never quite enough’ wind. But (as someone who rediscovered the joys of a big ol’ raceboard in the last couple of years) it’s great to see the all weather Windsurfer make a return and I think dinghy sailing generally has missed that trap. Maybe to the person looking in from the outside the foiling looks great but when you go to learn you get stuffed in a (safe) but uninspiring Wayfarer or Pico which results in the opposite of what was intended.

Edited by KazRob - 01 Mar 19 at 10:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 19 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Having attended a RYA conference recently where foiling courses were discussed, it was very obvious that those at the top of the instructor food chain see foiling as just one part of the sailing jigsaw. However, it is a part that can attract people into the sport. Personally, I think there is a disconnect, unless there is no need to teach plain old boring sailing to those who want to go foiling. The learn to sail, get good at it - get bloody excellent, actually - then foil model doesn't fit the current box ticking format of pastimes.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 19 at 10:03pm
Having attended a RYA conference recently where foiling courses were discussed, it was very obvious that those at the top of the instructor food chain see foiling as just one part of the sailing jigsaw. However, it is a part that can attract people into the sport. Personally, I think there is a disconnect, unless there is no need to teach plain old boring sailing to those who want to go foiling. The learn to sail, get good at it - get bloody excellent, actually - then foil model doesn't fit the current box ticking format of pastimes.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 19 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Well said, Tink etc.

What is odd is that not many people in the media seem to be asking questions about the practicality of "hyper performance" craft. One of the French sites recently posted some information about foilers that noted their vast cost and practicality problems, from the enormous cost (1/3 of the entire price of a Figaro III is the foils!) to the mooring issues. Few, if any, of the puff pieces about offshore foilers consider these important factors.

It's also sobering to see how far out of kilter many parts of the sailing "establishment" have become in their attitude towards cost. Inflation-adjusted costs for mid-performance seahuggers don't seem to have risen since the dinghy boomtime and such classes are doing quite well. However, the boats in the middle of the foiler market seem to cost more in inflation-adjusted costs than the most expensive dinghy (the Int 14) did back in the boomtime, and vastly more than the most expensive singlehander (the Canoe) did when the sport was growing. 

Once, it was publicly recognised that 14s and Canoes and the ilk were extremely expensive craft for the few. Now the "establishment" are promoting even more expensive craft as "the future". That represents a huge move to an elitist vision of the sport in which the average person need not apply. I love high performance craft and own and sail them, but for the health of our sport the media and officialdom need to stop pretending that they are the best way forward.

The other odd thing is that (unlike the situation when the sport was growing) very few of those in "the establishment" seem to actually go out and do what they are basically telling others to do, which is to buy, run and sail "hyper performance" boats. They are telling people to do as they say, not as they do, and that rarely works well.


Very nicely put, glad it isn’t just me. When we nead to be growing the sport promoting the achievable is more and more important. None sailing Joe sees a foiling moth he goes wow, sees a Topper, Laser, GP 14  and says that looks fun I could do that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 19 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by PeterG

One of the issues, at least with Moths, is that they are a development class, and developing actively, so those who are serious about being at the top of the fleet, and can afford it, are likely to change boats more frequently than many boat owners - so there being a lot 2nd hand Moths for sale may or may not indicate people giving up, rather trading up.

Though I'd certainly agree that dinghy sailing in general is a way short of being ready for foiling - or probably ever will be.

The Moth class AGM minutes and reports show pretty clearly that while the class is growing in some countries, the numbers are fairly small and some areas are declining or stagnant. That is, of course, not to say the boats and class are not wonderful and valuable, but it does indicate that the reality is different from the hype. It also shows that as you say, some people are trading up rather than selling out. 

It is rather amusing, if sad, to see how many people in the media leapt on to the big fleet at the Garda worlds as proof that "foiling is the future" but then ignored the dramatic drop in fleet numbers at later worlds.  


Edited by Chris 249 - 01 Mar 19 at 9:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 19 at 9:39pm
Well said, Tink etc.

What is odd is that not many people in the media seem to be asking questions about the practicality of "hyper performance" craft. One of the French sites recently posted some information about foilers that noted their vast cost and practicality problems, from the enormous cost (1/3 of the entire price of a Figaro III is the foils!) to the mooring issues. Few, if any, of the puff pieces about offshore foilers consider these important factors.

It's also sobering to see how far out of kilter many parts of the sailing "establishment" have become in their attitude towards cost. Inflation-adjusted costs for mid-performance seahuggers don't seem to have risen since the dinghy boomtime and such classes are doing quite well. However, the boats in the middle of the foiler market seem to cost more in inflation-adjusted costs than the most expensive dinghy (the Int 14) did back in the boomtime, and vastly more than the most expensive singlehander (the Canoe) did when the sport was growing. 

Once, it was publicly recognised that 14s and Canoes and the ilk were extremely expensive craft for the few. Now the "establishment" are promoting even more expensive craft as "the future". That represents a huge move to an elitist vision of the sport in which the average person need not apply. I love high performance craft and own and sail them, but for the health of our sport the media and officialdom need to stop pretending that they are the best way forward.

The other odd thing is that (unlike the situation when the sport was growing) very few of those in "the establishment" seem to actually go out and do what they are basically telling others to do, which is to buy, run and sail "hyper performance" boats. They are telling people to do as they say, not as they do, and that rarely works well.



Edited by Chris 249 - 01 Mar 19 at 9:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 19 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by JimC

Its a trend that's been growing for some time. Both the fast boats andthe slow boats have had huge drops in popularty, leaving just the middle.

Nicely put, the middle probably gives the best return on time and cash 
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