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Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rules Observance
    Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by ohFFsake

.

For example, at my old club our OOD set a very ambiguous course, and about half the fleet went one way and half the other. 

LOL

Same thing happened to us a few years ago.

The RO drew the course on the board and five minutes later he changed his mind and decided to reverse the course so without communication he altered the course board......of course half the racers saw the first diagram, half saw the second. It became clear at the five minute signal that something was amiss. The race started and there was chaos. If memory serves the RO abandoned the race and asked the safety boat to give instructions......I think most of us had a chuckle about it.

Re RO's administering justice. Surely as RO's we are too far away to see anything but the most obvious infringements?  I couldn't tell if someone has hit the mark unless I was sitting right on their transom and if you can't see everything (impossible) then best not set yourself up as judge and jury. It seem patronising and a whole kettle of fish, best treat them like adults.


Edited by transient - 22 Oct 17 at 5:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 9:50pm
Davidyacht, thanks for several thoughtful posts which haven't drawn much of a response.

Originally posted by davidyacht

Generally offenders get away with it because at the pressure points on the course you simply have too much going on in your boat to worry about others, and frankly the red mist is counter productive to the big picture.

Perhaps scaling the length of legs to the size of the fleet should be considered, even if this means longer races. 

Racing in flights might also result in better rule observance and hence greater enjoyment.
Interesting thought.

We usually think that big fleets are a good part of the game.

Anyone else?


Originally posted by davidyacht

When RO I once made the mistake of not finishing someone who left a mark to the wrong side ... my thinking was that he had not sailed the course; it was made quite clear to me that the RO only has the powers to disqualify someone without protest for starting infringements.

I have also seen monumental cockups caused by helpful safety boat crews, by proffering well meaning advice ref. courses, but not to everyone, which has resulted in races being lobbed.  

When I am RO I instruct safety boat drivers not to verbally communicate with racing boats (except in an emergency).

I don’t think any of this is detrimental to how the sport is perceived, better to apply the rules even handedly to all competitors.

The correct procedure would be for the RO to protest the offender, in reality I doubt if RO’s would protest in a club race situation unless the miscreant did some really blatant cheating.

There is nothing to stop competitors sportingly telling others when they have sailed the incorrect course, this is by no means unusual at our club.  

Unlike my usual cynical grumpiness, this response is really to protect volunteer ROs getting themselves into a mess by not following procedure, which might also result in perfectly good races being binned.  Don’t learn the hard way.

Seems like a pretty good way of looking at the role of the race officer.

Originally posted by davidyacht

There are some persistant Rule 42 offenders who if I know are sailing and it is light winds would cause me not to bother to compete.  And others who regard Rule 42 only to apply if someone vocally objects.  In both cases, somehow feel that I am the villain.

Rule 42 is probably the hardest rule in the book.

It's particularly hard for competitors to assemble enough evidence to win a protest, hence the use of on-water judging for rule 42 and Appendix P.  Even then rule 42 judging is very difficult.

Use of video might help.

What is needed is for rule 42 to be completely re-engineered.  I have no idea how this could be done.  I dream of the day when a genius engineer comes along and produces a more satisfactory workable solution.

Originally posted by davidyacht

Maybe we need Racing Rules of Sailing Lite which would allow all sorts of offences currently forbidden, which would see a major expansion of our sport.

What sort of breaches of the current rules do you think should be allowed?

Why do you think relaxing the rules would expand the sport?

I think golf is considering this, and 20/20 cricket.

I noticed that the Word Sailing Cup final in Japan had a 10 minute long medal race in the 49er’s ... no doubt also a ground breaking attempt to expand the sport.

While I don't recall the three mile beat in a 16 foot dinghy with much affection, a 10 minute race is nothing but a TV packaged highlights reel.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by Brass

 
Back to the conflict of interest.  It was blatent and obvious.  The Club (and other clubs) should have foreseen the problem and managed the conflict.  Ways of managing the conflict would include:
  • segregation of duties between the race officer and the scorer (increasingly difficult with on-line finish recording and results);
  • second officer check, or committee/sub-committee process for checking results.
  • Try to roster competitors as RO for races not involving their boat (obviously impossible if the club has just one race day/course for all classes).
I'm reluctant to go to town on this unnamed RO.   All we have is a conflict of interest and a mistake.  It's an unfortunate feature of conflict of interest that when this happens, people tend to jump to conclusions.

Could you not add to the list that there should be a system to check results and correct them if they are posted incorrectly ... I don’t know how you formalise that, but we have a form to post to correct incorrect results during regattas and an email link to the administrator to correct incorrectly posted series results.  Ultimately there is a route to seek redress through protest and to appeal.
Well, I mentioned checking a couple of times, but what I think you have in mind is a process for competitor initiated review of scoring (without having to start off with a formal request for redress).

Experienced race committees and judges have been using a Scoring Review Request process to address problems with apparent scoring mistakes for some time, although it is not well documented.

Competitors may submit a Scoring Review Request form, showing details of the error which they think has been made, and sometimes containing short evidence statements from other competitors in support (such as surrounding competitors in an OCS issue, or finishing place issue).

The Scoring Review Request is passed on to the Race Officer who reviews the race committee records such as original finishing sheets and start and finish voice recordings, and makes any corrections to final scores necessary as required by rule 90.3( c ).

Review by RO works well.  I've seen half a dozen redress requests about OCS resolved in twenty minutes by the race officer playing the voice record tapes to the competitors, who then happily withdrew their requests.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 10:09pm
Just to add to the limitations on Race Committee protests.

The RYA Race Management Guide is even more definitive:

9.6. RACE COMMITTEE PROTESTS
Since the primary responsibility for protesting breaches of the rules rests with competitors, the race committee will not normally protest a competitor. ... t is considered best practice to only protest a boat for a blatant breach of the rules that affects the fairness of a race such as failing to take a penalty after knowingly touching a mark or failing to sail the course. The race committee would also normally protest a competitor for a breach of good sportsmanship. 

Although how a race committee could validly form a view about the knowingness of a competitor touching a mark defeats me <g>.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 10:33pm
Maybe we need Racing Rules of Sailing Lite which would allow all sorts of offences currently forbidden, which would see a major expansion of our sport.

What sort of breaches of the current rules do you think should be allowed?

Why do you think relaxing the rules would expand the sport?

I was being ironic ... some posters have suggested that the rules are holding back the development of the sport, I don’t share that opinion

Part 2 Is 5 pages of 190 pages of the RRS and probably represents 99% of what the average weekend warrior needs to know and understand in order to get around the racecourse without endangering other competitors.

Perhaps this could be stripped out of the RRS and presented in a more visual manner (to be fair to the RYA I think they did this).

I think the rules work pretty well, the problems occur not because they don’t work, but because as in all walks of life there are people who don’t bother to learn them, or people choose to ignore them, or people choose to write their own.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 17 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Maybe we need Racing Rules of Sailing Lite which would allow all sorts of offences currently forbidden, which would see a major expansion of our sport.

What sort of breaches of the current rules do you think should be allowed?

Why do you think relaxing the rules would expand the sport?

I was being ironic ... some posters have suggested that the rules are holding back the development of the sport, I don’t share that opinion
You would have thought that, as an expert in sarcasm, I would have noticed that.

Originally posted by davidyacht

Part 2 Is 5 pages of 190 pages of the RRS and probably represents 99% of what the average weekend warrior needs to know and understand in order to get around the racecourse without endangering other competitors.

Perhaps this could be stripped out of the RRS and presented in a more visual manner (to be fair to the RYA I think they did this).
The Part 2 rules, in particular are written in plain language.  I don't think abbreviated versions of the rules themselves would be helpful.

There are any number of charts and dot point lists available to assist people to learn and remember the Part 2 rules.

I don't think that gutting Part 2 out of  the RRS would particularly help:  after all it's the second part:  I don't think you would want people NOT to look at Part 1 Fundamental Rules.
Originally posted by davidyacht

I think the rules work pretty well, the problems occur not because they don’t work, but because as in all walks of life there are people who don’t bother to learn them, or people choose to ignore them, or people choose to write their own.

Just so.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 1:51am
Originally posted by Brass

<snip>

Although how a race committee could validly form a view about the knowingness of a competitor touching a mark defeats me <g>.



other than marks in clear view of the committee boat  and   if  the  rescue provision is  working  properly and effectively those in clear view of a  rescue boat ?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 2:38am
Originally posted by zippyRN


Originally posted by Brass

<snip>
Although how a race committee could validly form a view about the knowingness of a competitor touching a mark defeats me <g>.

other than marks in clear view of the committee boat  and   if  the  rescue provision is  working  properly and effectively those in clear view of a  rescue boat ?

Sense of sight can tell you nothing about the mental state (knowingness) of a competitor.

Edited by Brass - 23 Oct 17 at 2:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 8:38am
There are occasions where a boat "may" have touched a mark, or "maybe" it was just their bow wave moving it? In these cases, I think a race committee would be unwise to intervene. But there are other cases where the boat simply runs the mark down, or rolls round it. If the boat doesn't do anything in those situations, and the only witness is the safety boat driver watching the gybe mark, should there be a protest? And if there is only one witness, and the sailor says that he didn't hit it, should the protest be upheld?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 17 at 10:34am
I have seen nothing to convince me on the water policing is wrong, 19.2 & 9.6 clearly state what RC can protest about.
The ' Mr Godfrey ' approach isn't working.
I stated in a earlier post how infringements were observed and dealt with, RC and two safety boats with two crew and racers themselves, this combined effort appears to work, racers protest infringements RC also protest infrigements, RC then adjudicate.
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