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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: National/Regional Circuits.
    Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 11:12am
Just maybe it is the tendancy to be highly prescriptive in some quarters that is part of the problem on forums and around some clubs. 

If you keep telling or implying to others, even perhaps unintentionally, that their preferred 'model' is wrong, less 'proper' or even inferior you could even drive people away from the competitive side of the sport at the margin all together.  You certainly don't attract others to your way of thinking if you knock their current choices or ideas ...  you might even be doing the exact opposite !    

The too frequent negativity expressed by a few regulars simply cannot be dressed up, however they might justify it, as generally positive to the future of small boat competition.  'Debate' or discussion here all too often seems to seek out the lowest common forum demoninator - essentially 'my' choice of class of boat, type of racing, preference of location etc etc .. is superior to 'yours'.  So others like different boats, ways of racing,  class rules or formulas, location and have different ideas  ... whatever - Just accept it and go sailing.


Edited by Cirrus - 12 Nov 16 at 11:13am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 11:21am
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Edited by Chris 249 - 12 Nov 16 at 11:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 11:27am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Chris 249, just as with everything else in the sport, there is little that is actually 'new'! I've got the original paperwork from the 'semi-official' 2 person performance boat Trials that were held at Itchenor SC between Loosedrecht and La Baule in the early 1950s. Back then of course dinghies still reefed or, in the case of 14s, dropped their genoa when going to windward in a strong breeze.

I was reading about how, with a forecast of strong breezes,  the 14 borrowed a suit of National 12 sails. This was clearly an accepted thing to do, for when John Westell was sailing his boat from Exmouth to Hunstanton for the POW event, he borrowed a suit of Nat 12 sails. Back to the Trials - the 14 was using the Nat 12s rig, so the FD borrowed the 14 sails....mix and match!

Yep, and Coronet used 14 sails for much (or most) of the next trials, and of course the canoes had been using multiple rigs for different conditions from about 1888, with the predecessors of the skiffs adopting multiple rigs about that time too.

I'd have to disagree with Jeffers, because you can have "true class racing" and still allow multiple sails and rigs. I was just using Sam's example, as it's a class we've both raced in, to make the point that allowing multiple rigs can also get to be very expensive and complicated.

The only time I've run a class it was a single-sail SMOD.  We had an issue with beginners being able to finish in high winds, so I commissioned a small high-wind one-design sail and we altered the rules to allow it to be used so that sailors could finish high-wind races.  We made changes to the points system so the sailors who didn't want the extra cost and hassle of buying a (very cheap) sail would remain competitive. Having only one sail wasn't perfect. Allowing multiple sails wasn't perfect. The compromise we ended up with wasn't perfect either!


Edited by Chris 249 - 12 Nov 16 at 11:49am
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 11:37am
There are plenty of active classes offering everything from strict One Design to multiple rigs and development hulls, just choose the one that suits you. And racing is available in all forms from big OD fleets to casual handicap so even the 'lost classes' like my Spice get a chance to have enjoyable racing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 11:53am
Broadly with Cirrus and Sam on this one. There is plenty of choice to be had, both on no choice tight OD rules, different rig choices under OD running various regimes and other classes that have a broader approach. Looking at my own class measurement rules all the sail dimensions are maximum with no minimum mentioned. 
To pose the question has racing now with the benefit of extensive safety cover and very efficient warm clothing lost sight of good seamanship? Seems to me the examples of using undersized sails in days of yore was a tribute to good sense rather than cheque book cheating by using optimum sails.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

On the other hand Sam, earlier this year I walked away from the Raceboard class because they were allowing more and bigger sails, and there seemed to be no value in spending $6,000 just so we could go 1-2% quicker.

I gave up Raceboards when they dropped the 7.5m class (well, I continued the NW circuit as they stuck with 7.5m and finally sold my battered old Equipe II this year)

You got away lucky with two sails - at one time in raceboards we were often turning up with two or three boards (all carbon/kevlar and hand made)and four or more complete rigs. The 18s at one stage were using four (or was it 4.5?) rigs.

IIRC IYRU Int. Raceboards have never allowed custom boards and limit a racer to one board and two sails at a given event and the current max sail size is still 9.5m (since 2009 I think). I think Chris is in the US though so things may well be different that side of the pond.


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 12 Nov 16 at 1:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oatsandbeans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 4:23pm
In the 80's ( I know it is showing my age) in Div 1 you could use custom boards with carbon and Kevlar, and we could use as many sails as you wanted.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 7:22pm
Chris249 is in Australia, but I assume the rules for an international class would be the same. Interpretation might differ, of course!
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 10:19pm
The Raceboard confusion is based on a historical issue which I didn't explain earlier since I didn't want to make the post too long. 

The Raceboard class that has been around for years basically grew out of the early '80s  "Pan Am boards" (which had basically no rules at all) and then in 1985 the "Production class" created by the WSMA (ie the manufacturer's association, which also ran the pro World Cup), with the only real rule being that boards had to be mass produced.  I've pulled out an old article from '85, which shows that each sailor that Neil Pryde sponsored in the Euro Funboard Cup or "Production class" had 8 sails, and pros often had two boards.

The idea of people having to have 4-8 sails was obviously untenable as soon as Raceboards started to become widely popular and became an ISAF class, and therefore the early versions of the ISAF class rules were drafted to include a sail size limit and a sail number limit. 


PS - I checked yesterday about rig numbers. Turns out that I was wrong and that they still only allow two rigs during an event. The purchase of new rigs was to allow for the fact that they have increased the maximum sail area, leading some people to change their high-wind sail as well to maintain the correct spacing to allow them to sail across the full wind range. 







Edited by Chris 249 - 12 Nov 16 at 10:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 16 at 10:21pm
I think I first sailed Div 1 in the early '80s and we had triangular sails, Mylar Tri-lam was just being introduced and I bought a Tushingham 6.3m race sail. 6.0m camber induced sails followed (also Tushingham but I needed two at that size to cover 3-25 knots plus a 5.5ish strong wind sail). It wasn't until  Div 1 was replaced by the 'Raceboard" class (I'm guessing but in the early '90s) that custom boards were disallowed. I raced against Keith and Ian Escrit (both now dinghy sailors at Yorkshire Dales S C and amongst the original Laser Vortex sailors) back in Div 1 when they were World Champion and runner up.

IIRC Keith and Ian along with Roger Tushingham and Martin Page were instrumental in the design of the 'Free Radical P.E.T' Div 1 board which cleaned up on the UK National circuit and I believe that was part of the reason the establishment banned custom boards when the Raceboard Class was mooted. Had the Free Radical boards been much more expensive than the production boards of the time that might have been defensible but they were actually cheaper (and, also IIRC, more durable). A great shame when they were disallowed.
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