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chrisg View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 Apr 16 at 12:35pm
Whatever.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 16 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

The one major benefit a Laser has is that a well maintained one (doesn't take much) of 20 odd years, say a 17 or early 18 number, is still competitive at club level.  Older ones can be too.... Will either the Aero or Zero be able to make such a claim in 2036?   Time will tell.... 


Competitive with what? Other old Laser sh*tboxes? If they are still so competitive how come in my tenure in this dingy world the handicap has gone from 1078-1095 and theoretically only things that make it faster have been added.
The only thing that's helping the competitiveness is the CFBL (Campaign for the Bandit Laser) being run quite successfully by the PYAG in concert with the Great Lakes business consortium.

And don't think I haven't noticed the vested interest of the Draycote fleet and one of the key members of the PYAG

Edited by iGRF - 25 Apr 16 at 12:36pm
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 16 at 11:23am
The one major benefit a Laser has is that a well maintained one (doesn't take much) of 20 odd years, say a 17 or early 18 number, is still competitive at club level.  Older ones can be too.... Will either the Aero or Zero be able to make such a claim in 2036?   Time will tell.... 
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 16 at 11:10am
A fleet at a club is only ever really as good as the fleet captain.

At Hunts our Laser fleet has been rudderless for a few years with a series of weak fleet captains who have now (on the whole) left the class. Just recently an enthusiastic Laser sailor has taken on the challenge and it has made difference. he has been contacting Laser owners, asking what would persuade them back on to the water and it is working the fleet is seeing a resurgence but by far the most competitive fleet at Hunts these days is the Solo where many ex-Laser people have moved to.

With regards to the *ero classes now you are seeing a bit of turnover in each class as, those that can, are doing the 'new boat for not much more than a new sail' thing the boats are coming within the reach of those at clubs who cannot quite afford a new one. Both classes are supported by respected manufacurers and both boats are selling OK worldwide (Aero around 1000 depending on who you ask and D-Zero recently reported at over 300). I would imagine the Laser probably still outstripped both boats easily in worldwide sales.

Thos involved in the new classes should not kid themselves that their chosen steed is going to kill the Laser off, it simply will not happen. Both classes have their appeal to the people who sail them, as the Laser does to those who sail it but it is going to take time to get critical mass and get affordable second hand boats out there. 
Paul
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 16 at 2:36pm
indeed, but I always enjoyed it for the sailing, even though I was 20kg too heavy for it back then.  

Same can't be said of the Laser - even at 82kg it was still a sh*tbox (with great racing!)  
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chrisg View Drop Down
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Posts: 893 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 16 at 2:26pm
ughh well you are getting on a bit I guess now....
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 16 at 2:22pm
7... that's cool  :-)  

(although sometimes it's best to remember a class through some rose-tints and generally a positive experience, rather than subject myself to one again)  

Next boat is likely to be another Solo - I enjoyed that boat a lot.
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chrisg View Drop Down
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Posts: 893 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 16 at 2:00pm
On the contrary James, I, and I think most of the other 300 sailors enjoy seeing how we've done against the 29 lasers! Means we can see how we fair against them without having to endure actually sailing one of the ghastly things. And times are being taken every week for everyone on Wednesdays. Happy days. Lasers can purely concentrate on their fleet racing on the water and then see how they did against everyone else on the water too (I know a few of the lasers have said they are enjoying the personal handicapping aspect too). You need to get another 300 and join in! Think we're back up to 7 now.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 16 at 11:09am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by turnturtle

and that proper racing - fleet racing - is somehow inferior to that b**locks handicap system new boats seem to rely on to justify themselves...


If people really thought fleet racing was superior it wouldn't be so difficult for clubs to maintain fleets, and you wouldn't get people changing class at a drop of a hat.

If you look at the real world then its hard to build fleets, and even harder to keep them going for more than a few seasons once they've built. Successful fleets seem to rely on one or two charismatic people to grow, and if they move on for whatever reason the fleets often die.

agreed, it's hard to build stand alone fleets like the one cited in the OP, hence the reason why something seemingly so hard should be celebrated when successful.

I also take your point about real work scenarios, but I'd probably suggest that in the main, a large handicap fleet is probably sub-divided into various factions competing with those around them, ideally often enough to build up the friendly rivalry that good club sailing offers (irrespective of fleet vs py stuff).  I can't imagine the RS300s which get good, albeit small group racing at Draycote are that bothered about how they faired in the 'overall club results' when someone can be bothered to time those 30 Laser finishers.
  
I know from my own more recent experiences, racing Albacores and RS300s at the front of a fleet in an RS100 meant I really didn't care for the paper result which had me and 300 way down the ranks, with some Solo I barely interacted with when lapping for the second time apparently in the chocolates with said Albacore.  That was still good sailing for what is was- small lake, friendly where possible evening stuff, but at the time I was also doing opens for my 'proper racing' fix.  I'm not entirely sure it would hold my interest if that's all I was doing.     
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iiiiticki View Drop Down
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Posts: 206 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiiiticki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 16 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by boatshed

Originally posted by SimonW99

If laser had improved their manfacturing processes, shed some weight and added a carbon rig plus a better set of sails 


Why ever would the class want to do that?  The Laser is an excellent and classic bit of durable 20th C design, good for mass production and accessible for the masses.  Its been said before and it still holds true; a Laser can be dragged out of the nettles and be on the start line in no time.   It is the VW Beetle of dinghy sailing; turn the key and it runs.  The cost of entry is peanuts, as is the cost of ownership.   It is remarkable how many boxes the Laser ticks.  

The Laser was a very significant and successful hardware update of the Sunfish.  Personally and from what I've seen, I believe the Zero is the spiritual successor to the Laser but whether its hardware improvements result in the same success as the Laser, time will tell.

I cannot help feeling that the nails are ready to be driven into Lasers coffin. A good boat could have been a better (and surviving) boat if it had recieved gradual development. We only have one regular owner/sailor in a laser now but we do have club owned boats.
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