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Rupert View Drop Down
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Joined: 11 Aug 04
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    Posted: 07 May 15 at 9:58pm
WB, I know your views on py, it was other people's views on what you are doing at By the I was vaguely interested in. However, I'm bored with the ignorant ranting now, so I have now lost all interest.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 15 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by craiggo

I post one moan about the website and get a couple of very helpful pm's and 3 pages of nonsense about the whole system being broken.


One of the more damaging things about WB and TTs constant hijacking of every thread in sight to push their theorising is that it means that there's little point in discussing anything vaguely related to the topics of race management results and handicapping to share experiences and learn from each other because it will just get submerged in their personal obsessions, so the rest of us are all losers.

Edited by JimC - 07 May 15 at 10:34pm
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 15 at 11:30pm
No hijack here Jim, I just asked a rather logical question... 'So what are you doing differently now then'.

I was surprised by the answer, I was expecting 'nothing, but ranting and moaning' (paraphrased appropriately)

This is a dinghy development section- discussing new ideas is surely one of the goals? There is of course a race management section and a sail wave support section should anyone wish to limit the scope of any discussion.

Edited by turnturtle - 08 May 15 at 12:01am
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bert View Drop Down
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Posts: 584 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 15 at 12:44pm
[QUOTE=Woodburner]

"It's not the rest of the world views it's the views of those of you left on this forum."
I do wonder if the poster has worked out why a part of this statement is so true.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 15 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

 
here's a thought, back in the day, no really back in the day, even before you were born, yacht racing was done on the basis that a combination of the best sailors and best boats won on the day.  There's no magic formula to get that balanced off, either in boat performance as per IRC or PY, or crew skill factor as per 'Golf', it's just the way it was and could be in the future.  

'Racing Scratch' is going right back to the roots of the sport before it was even recognised as a sport per say... it's an interesting experiment.


Of course, back in the day sailing was much less popular than it became when one design classes and more sophisticated rating rules were developed, which may indicate that 'racing scratch' is a primitive form of the sport that doesn't last very well.

When and where you talking about, btw?
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 15 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

There's no handicapping at the local running club, nor at the body combat class at the Leisure Centre.  

No, but there are very few leopards or horses who turn up at local running clubs, are there?  And do lions and bears enter the body combat classes around your joint?

Sports that basically just use the human body, like running and combat, are inherently going to have less variation than those that use large pieces of equipment that are also influenced by the human body.

I don't know if the local cycling clubs around here run some form of handicap based on who has the best kit- I think they just pitch up in groups of similarish ability.  They're all over-subscribed, I know that much.

Almost all cycling clubs race under UCI rules, or something very close to it, which means that it's pretty much like a Merlin or N12 fleet; the range of permitted dimensions is tight and the range of actual equipment performance is very, very tight. It can't be compared to handicap racing dinghy, which allows for enormous diversity in design and performance. 

Your local road cycling club's main events would normally ban at two out of the three most popular competitive bicycle types in the UK (MTBs and TT bikes) as well as the type of bike used in most Olympic events.  

Cycling is certainly no freer than dinghy racing. For example, I have a track bike, which can only race track; a TT bike, which is only allowed in road TTs; a CX bike, which is competitive only in CX events and some very rare road races; and two roadies which are uncompetitive in TTs and CX and banned from the track.  If I still had a mountain bike it would be banned from all road races, all track races and all official CX races.

Oh, and my sock length can be measured and I've just had to buy new drink bottles because my old ones have been banned.  By the way, building your own gear or getting a mate to knock it up is now banned, unlike in dinghy sailing. 

There's very little evidence that dinghy sailing is restrictive at all, compared to other equipment-intensive sports.  

Theres no handicapping at the equestrian events I support my family at, although doing well with our old cart horse does raise a mixed reaction- that said, we only care about those who say well done, or who are genuinely surprised/supportive/encouraging, not the snooty ones who spend 20 grand plus on a beast to inevitably get rag-dolled down the arena.    

Yes, but it's a horse club, restricted to horses - not a quadruped club that allows tigers, cows carrying two riders, buffalo, greyhounds, pugs and alpacas to race together. In other words, the rules governing the "equipment" that is permitted would be much more restrictive than most sailing clubs, surely.

We had well over 100 windsurfers at the NWF all racing together - no handicaps, and generally speaking, windsurfers, or certainly these ones, rarely race.  I think most reported they enjoyed it and would do it again.

So it would be interesting to see if your sailing club can roll with the 'beach vibe' racing scratch - group exercise and social sports are on the increase, dinghy sailing isn't*.   I will wait (patiently) to see if this new approach garners more participation - and especially more diverse participation than the 'golf club on water' most sailing clubs seem to be.  


* edit: Laser sailing at our club and reportedly at Oxford is massively increasing year on year, but that's not handicap racing.



Re the NWF - what one does for a giggle once a year is not necessarily something would do on a regular basis.  As a windsurfer sailor I don't think I or many of my competitors would turn up each week to race people on very different gear....you may as well try to play chess against someone who is playing chequers.


Edited by Chris 249 - 08 May 15 at 1:24pm
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 15 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by Chris 249



Re the NWF - what one does for a giggle once a year is not necessarily something would do on a regular basis.  As a windsurfer sailor I don't think I or many of my competitors would turn up each week to race people on very different gear....you may as well try to play chess against someone who is playing chequers.

Thanks for the considered replies Chris - I read your posts and think 'yeah, he's got a point'....  which then leads me to question whether I've been right to knock the laser for the last 10 years or so.  It does after all, provide a quality of racing that no handicap system could even presume to come close to.  

Right racing, wrong boat?  Maybe Not, after all you can't deny with the very real statistics from my club and another one not so far away- more entries, more newbies,  more returners, more age diversity.... all found sailing Lasers right now, some for competitive outlays of less than a grand.  

On Wednesday if I'd launched and started in the Medium Handicap fleet I'd have been sailing around on my own, coming first or last depending on whether you're feeling the positivity and spin.... I didn't bother and honestly speaking, had I had more time, I'd have sorted out a club Laser - they got a good race.    


Edited by turnturtle - 08 May 15 at 1:53pm
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chrisg View Drop Down
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Posts: 893 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 15 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

On Wednesday if I'd launched and started in the Medium Handicap fleet I'd have been sailing around on my own, coming first or last depending on whether you're feeling the positivity and spin.... I didn't bother and honestly speaking, had I had more time, I'd have sorted out a club Laser - they got a good race.    

Well, both the lasers that finished had a reasonably close race anyway..... It was blowing old boots so its a bit unfair to judge races and turnouts by last Wednesday James.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 15 at 2:47pm
6 started though mate, and 4 finished if you include the guys who switched down to radials (fair enough imho... as you say, it was windy... I'd been out most of the afternoon on a 5m sail)
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chrisg View Drop Down
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Posts: 893 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 15 at 3:12pm
6 started? I see 4 in the results. Can't really count radials as the same as a full rig IMO. Maybe I missed some when i did the results though. Apologies if i did.... 

If you'd have "launched and started in the Medium Handicap fleet" you wouldn't have been sailing around on your own coming first or last as we don't separate out handicap results in to different "fleets", you'd have been racing 4 other boats (6 that launched). So basically the same as the laser fleet. Not sure you'd have been allowed to hire a club laser, I thought they weren't hired out when the black shapes were flying to limit damage.

When's your 300 arriving? We've had a few out every wednesday and had good racing (not that I've got anywhere near Nick or Steve).


Edited by chrisg - 08 May 15 at 3:15pm
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