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PY Inland vs Sea

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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PY Inland vs Sea
    Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 7:41pm
So are we to rightly believe that despite what, 20 years since its launch, the original polyester Blaze with a tin rig is as competitive as a modern epoxy one with a carbon one as long as the rag is fresh?  

Yeah right....  at least Solo and Phantom builders acknowledge the performance improvements from buying a new one.
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 7:43pm
Dan ...

I gave up properly 'selling to GRF' before you were out of nappies ! The white £ 5 note rumoured to have survived the decades of moths those natural home is his wallet might still be there and a bit tattered but I've never seen it. 

And after he sorts out the 'carpets and curtains' in the new Fuller Towers I don't expect to see it any tme soon either !! ... paradoxically that is why I think his 'take' is valid on occasion - he is not likely to ever buy one of our boats. (might be we are actually out to tease you guys !!)

But 'Greame' has owned a Blaze in the 'dim distant' (not purchased from me btw !) and has told me exactly what was wrong with it of course .. often and with a certain 'directness' ... and yes just sometimes I might even take account.  We do have the occasional 'laugh' and sometimes a glass of shandy together reminising about UKBSA and other bodies manned by the 'living dead'. 

'Spell his name correctly' ....  why on earth would we start bothering now ?  LOL

Mike L.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 7:45pm
Well there you go Mike showing your true colours.  Using the ol Chestnut...Get out sailing, borrow a boat.  I have sailed a Blaze on a number of occasions.  Its a fine boat, not my thing.  Read my post again.  Its not having a dig at the class in anyway shape or form.  If anything its complementary, In my opinion (from experience having owned a zero and sailed a Blaze something i am guessing you Haven't) the Blaze is a faster boat.  On paper it should be it has the righting moment, the horse power.  but yet the PY has got slower and is slower than a Zero!  I am prodding the system not the class!!!  As for the Carbon stick remarks, i am not surprised the best sailor won.  i wouldn'texpect the new mast to be hugely different in speed.  However it MUST make a difference in terms of overall weight unless its been weighted?  Has it?  

I never once accused you or the rest of 'Us' in the Blaze class or Cirus of having anything to do with the numbers??????  Perhaps instead of the smart ass comments you should perhaps re-read....

So thanks for your attack, at least i know what i am dealing with now.  But i can assure it was not meant to be that way!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker

So are we to rightly believe that despite what, 20 years since its launch, the original polyester Blaze with a tin rig is as competitive as a modern epoxy one with a carbon one as long as the rag is fresh?  

Yeah right....  at least Solo and Phantom builders acknowledge the performance improvements from buying a new one.


I can believe it - Topper actually built solid hulls - if they didn't fall apart within the season, I'd say they are good for 20 years. And some of them at least would be fairly down to weight, so why shouldn't they still be competitive? Not as if they would be unique in that - an early 80's Lightning won the Nationals this year, and Fireflies are regularly 50 or 60 years old and winning. Well looked afer 20 year old Rondar Fireflies are also still capable of winning (though maybe not the ones used for team racing by uncaring students!

The Solo and Phantom are in a totally different situation. They are built to a set of measurement rules, where it is possible to tweak the shape and make "your" build faster than that of the rival boat builder.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 8:08pm
There's been 3 hull interactions to my knowledge - including a move to Epoxy, we also knew back at my old club how much variation there was between the old ones in hull weight, one was over 100kg iirc!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 8:11pm
Kneewrecker et al

Of course newer boats should be better than old ones - well mostly. 

But in our case we have never 'tweaked' the hull shape at any stage of hull production.   There is zero 'tolerence' or need to do so - the class is a SMOD. 

You mention a couple of the more traditonal classes, amongst many of course, and they were designed for home build originally with plywood.   To ensure that most 'measured' generous allowences were the general rule....  Later when they switched to more modern materials these tolerences were fully exploited by competing builders and enhanced hull shapes, simply impossible with plywood, were produced and refined .. and refined.   

SMODS do not do this .... and why would they ever need to commercially ?  We switched to epoxy and as a result boats supplied at minimum weight stay at minimum weight.  Polyester can absorb water over the years even if you can largely 'sweat it out' with care but it is a right faff to do this every year or so .. so many today use vinylester or epoxy which are generally impervious to water.  The RS400 switched I'm told to Vinylester a few seasons back for exactly the same reasons.   That was a sensible change as well and I'd expect their hulls to remain competitive a lot longer as well.

Anyway as a SMOD builder we don't have to tweak within a set of flexible hull rules.  Nothing wrong with it however if your class has always allowed it but that is not what SMODs are about.  In fact we still use the original hull tooling - all, that is every single Blaze hull, to date has come out of it.  (Deck tooling usually needs replacing more often  btw)

Anyway this is getting a bit boring - you can find out more on the Blaze CA website if you are curious.  The bottom line is that we enjoy a healthy mix of older (well maintained) and newer hulls and rigs at the front in our events.  Yes it is very nice to have a new hull and rig, always was, but if you want to be competitive and are prepared to fully sort out an older Blaze you really can get to the front...  

Do you need a carbon mast ?   I think they are better myself but not absolutely essential and recent results really do continue to prove it .. as we hoped.   My opinion is just that, a single view amongst many, so look at the class results, they are in the public domain, and make up your own mind.   

Anyway Monday over .. and like last week I'm now 'on the wagon' (web-wise) for the rest of the week.

Mike L.    

PS:  .... One was over 100kg iirc!!!   Blimey the only thing that heavy must have been a development plug that escaped the skip ! ....  Nobody would ever have paid for that !! 




Edited by blaze720 - 20 Oct 14 at 8:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 8:52pm

The Solo and Phantom are in a totally different situation. They are built to a set of measurement rules, where it is possible to tweak the shape and make "your" build faster than that of the rival boat builder.

In defence of the Solo the design is some 60 years old so the shape is pretty optimised, pretty much to a Rowsell Morrison shape of the eighties.  I am poised to order a new boat, I am struggling to differentiate between the six FRP options available, it is more about optimisation to your weight and sailing style.  However you can now pick up 10 year old Winders and Speeds which still have the potential to win Championship Races.  The advantage of a non-OEM class is that completion between manufacturers drives a better product.   Yes, newer boats do go faster, but I would dare to suggest that this is due to the high quality competition at the front of the fleet working its way down.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by davidyacht


The Solo and Phantom are in a totally different situation. They are built to a set of measurement rules, where it is possible to tweak the shape and make "your" build faster than that of the rival boat builder.

In defence of the Solo the design is some 60 years old so the shape is pretty optimised, pretty much to a Rowsell Morrison shape of the eighties.  I am poised to order a new boat, I am struggling to differentiate between the six FRP options available, it is more about optimisation to your weight and sailing style.  However you can now pick up 10 year old Winders and Speeds which still have the potential to win Championship Races.  The advantage of a non-OEM class is that completion between manufacturers drives a better product.   Yes, newer boats do go faster, but I would dare to suggest that this is due to the high quality competition at the front of the fleet working its way down.

and in defence of the Phantom, plastic ones are only available from the one mould, licenced to Ovingtons but owned by the Class Association. Therefore all plastic phantoms are the same on the waterline. You can though build your own to the rules, but no one has managed to do it in recent years and achieve the minimum weight of 61kgs. Not really sure its worth effort to be honest. Early plastic ones (polyester) varied massively in weight (up to 14kgs over) but are the same shape as the latest ones. Nearly all of the epoxy ones are just below (and made up with correctors) or just above the 61kgs, and that includes all of the fixed fittings and centreboard.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilB-Phantom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 9:29pm
Back to the original topic.  I would think that the RYA producing PY ctte or whatever they are called these days publishing a  set of  recommended %age change  to the published number for say small lake/river, large lake/enclosed sea, open sea would be something that most clubs would be happy to adopt.  The system could be further refined by producing the %ages banded to PY ranges, so slower boats could have a different correction to faster ones on the same bit of water.

I imagine what most clubs need in respect of changing the PY is a recommendation  from some sort of governing body that they can refer members to in the event of anyone not agreeing with the changes. 

Merlins (use to?) do this pretty well by producing recommended PY for bands of sail numbers so old boats aren't trying to sail off the current PY which is  surely for what is effectively a completely different boat.  I suspect the Phantom and maybe the Solo could do this to a lesser degree.  I've seen some numbers kicking round on the Phantom class forum but never published in an easily accessible spot as guidance for race secretaries.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 14 at 9:32pm
I seem to recall from the time I sailed a Phantom that the best club to cite was Northampton- who had a very clear delineation for the class between the new boats and the old woodies.  

 AIUI- it works/ed very well for them, and certainly was something I would have been happy to adopt as an owner at the time had my club adjusted numbers.
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